Warlords and Merchants Discussion

[Xenon]

- Starting Minerals per Crystal
- Starting Gas per Geyser

[Ricky_Honejasi]

- Starting Minerals per Crystal
- Starting Gas per Geyser

Good catch, while I thought about them, I forgot to add them into my lists for some reason.

[Vetraeus]

I recommend increasing the Gas gain for Zerg. It seems extrordinarily low.

[Mucky]

I recommend increasing the Gas gain for Zerg. It seems extrordinarily low.

Or not, because then they can outbuy Terran/Protoss on their own units...?

[IskatuMesk]

I don't think zerg is too bad right now. You already have autocast larva and that is tremendously powerful.

Come on, if I can win games as zerg...

[Ricky_Honejasi]

So a possible extra setting on top of the others mentionned :

- Warlords starts with a Xel Naga's Tower (on or off, off by default)

As for extra gas for Zerg, nope.

Btw, so how's Yeti's melee map for W&M coming, Vetraeus?

[IskatuMesk]

So, in thoughts of tonight's two games;

Some people thought that zerg were underpowered. Upon watching these people, namely Dtox, I have to disagree. Massing zerglings really just doesn't work. Cliff zerglings can be quite effective, but normal zerglings aren't going to do anything at all, especially to hellions. I will re-iterate that AA hellions still move way too damn fast, though, and that their collision is still too small.

Especially with the new buffs, you should be massing Roachs for AG, and only making Zerglings when you're killing off stuff that can't really fight back. The Warlord's defender totally obliterates zerglings, much less actual units. If anything, make butter.

If you're having gas issues it's because you're not mining gas and not buying the upgrades. Zerg really aren't any different from the other races at this point, except for their dependence on creep. Use worms. I find worms to be absolutely amazing, and potentially even overpowered, on this map. There are certain units, some non-zerg as well, that are devastating when used as a backdoor. Since Aegis are "nerfed" right now they aren't so effective as when I used them, but...

Zerg have two units that really do suck. The first and foremost is the Ultralisk. It costs too much supply. I don't expect it to be a truly amazing combat unit, but for 6 supply it doesn't do anywhere near enough damage. The second is the Mutalisk. They die en masse to static defenses because of the splash, and scarcely compete with mass anything use when using magic box. I prefer to use mutalisks exclusively for backdooring shit, because the Zerg have the most powerful AA unit in the game - Devourers. Seriously, if you need anti-air, make devourers. They are insane.

Also, stop making Hydras vs mech. It doesn't work. Lurkers can work, but not if he's any good. It doesn't work in vanilla, it won't work here. Hydras are good for cheap AA or vs protoss if he has no robo/archives. Not for fighting tanks and mass hellions. Go straight for air or buy garbage off of merchants.

In regards to the talk about the hunter-killer evolve - I think it should be added for the hydra. However, hunter killers should not be able to morph into luckers.

Mass butter is still ridiculous so you always have that.

There's not much you can do about merchant bias, though. Having nothing protoss related, and no gas at all, makes you fucked when you're fighting 20 banshees and a dozen+ mustaches with AA splashing planet cracker killing everything you own. That will always be an evil of this map you can't design away.


Also, Blizzard's brilliant performance update made the game completely unplayable for me, especially in the second game. The lag was absolutely crippling, and I wasn't even recording! I don't need to tell you how hard it is to fight off two aggressive players without being able to shift click, much less in 2-3fps. I just kind of gave up at that point. It continued to lag ridiculously badly for me all the way until Bishotron left. I guess sc2 still has issues with i7's because Blizzard's interns have never done anything multithreaded in their life. Not to mention the, you know, having to restart the game like 4 times because it arbitrarily drops random players.

[Vetraeus]

Btw, so how's Yeti's melee map for W&M coming, Vetraeus?

In terms, he hasn't started yet, But if you really want it done, your going to have to decide on a terrain theme or multiset. Because otherwise we can't get started. In stating you have your choices, everyone has claim. Here are your choices.

Jungle (Pure)
Jungle, Swamplands
Jungle, Savanna
Space Platform (Fortresses)
Space Platform, Bridged, Floating Islands
Desert, Volcanic
Desert, Droughtlands
Volcanic Moon
Interior Caverns (Volcanic)
Installation - Caves
Installation
Urban Jungle (Colission is a guarentee with destructable stree lamps and buildings)
Lunar (Moon)
Caverns (Underground Jungle)
Caverns (Underground City)
Caverns (Crystal Caves)
Mountainous (Pathing Tools)
Snow

Thats pretty much it. plants to make it allow 12 Warlords and a Set 2-3 Merchants and a Neutral Hostile A.I. at Player 16 Script.

[IskatuMesk]

Make it as intensely detailed as possible to lag even more. Because the AI won't lag enough.

[Vetraeus]

Deleting the ideal to force Warlord.

To my knowledge, the A.I. Doesn't seem to have any lag issues at its current status, but It might as the game progresses it really is dependant on supply limit. I'm going to use Ricky's W&M Buy engine and allow the AI to buy upgrades and units from players too. Should be pretty fun . (Computer 16 rolls into Empiria's base with 6 synced Giant Banelings.

[IskatuMesk]

ricky is gonna shoot you down like a flyboy in Pearl Harbor.

[Ricky_Honejasi]

For any new terrain, I am very open to whatever terrain. In fact, the ideal is letting YOU have some terrain tailored to your own personal gang of players. I honestly don't care which terrain it is. YOU pick.

Unfortunately, letting your AI buy merchants units is essentially trying to force me to give you my map's triggers (since you need to know my triggers to do the things). I am not letting you poke into my triggers, sorry. In addition, I really don't want to be "intimate" (constant cooperation, etc.) with anyone else as far W&M.

The closest I COULD allow (in other words, I didn't agree at all yet) is that you make all the triggers you want while you have final methods that I can plug into my own triggers/methods. Thus, you can mostly trigger like you want while I can just easily replace your AI trigger set into my map.

Examples :
AttemptBuyUnit(UnitType, Merchant Player Integer, Quantity)
RequestMoreUnit(UnitType, Merchant Player Integer, Quantity)
GetAvailableQuantityUnit(UnitType, Merchant Player Integer)
GetUnitMineralCost(UnitType, Merchant Player Integer)
GetUnitVespeneCost(UnitType, Merchant Player Integer)
SwitchLandzoneDestinationForNextPurchases(Unit)
etc. etc.

However before you try to bother with that part, I strongly suggest you try to make your AI work right in general melee scenarios. That alone is likely a lot of work and I wouldn't be surprised that SC2 patches will like to break your AI, etc.

In addition, I won't update W&M with your AI triggers at very whim. I have a tendency to only update a bit W&M once per week (and only if I feel like it) and it will stay like this.

[Vetraeus]

In other areas, We'll get started on the terrain asap.

[Ricky_Honejasi]

And now, the upcoming W&M updates so far for next FFS :

Changes :
1) Combo - Giant Banelings and Ultralings are no longer incorrectly seen when burrowed.
2) Warlords now properly forget their researches when becoming merchants.
3) Added "Shadow Phasing Prism" advanced research.
4) Added icons on various units that can benefit from which advanced researches.
Warning : Still lacking lots of units without said icons!
5) Adv.R. Dramatic Remutations now affects Hydralisks morphing into Lurkers.
6) Hydralisks no longer cost more resources on burrow.
7) Ultralisk (and combos) got a +0.3 speed buff.
8) Combo - Ultraling got a +0.3 speed buff.
9) Ultralisk Cavern no longer have Anabolic Synthesis.
10) Geobinder gains +2 AoE for improved harvesting.
11) Adv.R defense researches buffed, costs 150%.

Other notes :
A) Warlords units should no longer cloaked by accident in Sandbox mode.
B) Raven now requires Seeker Missile research again to use Seeker Missile.
C) Mutalisk now have +1 attack range.
D) Adv.R Zerg Regen Defenses now gives +50 life and +6 regen per level (from +25/+3 regen)
E) Terran Titanium Defenses now give +2 armor and +25 life (from +1ar / +25 life).
F) Adv.R Defense upgrades now cost 150% resources and time (a 150m/150g/180t base).
G) Defense Structures upgrading to 2x should have a light grey tint color and 3x should have a dark grey tint color.

Additional details :
*) Decided to try to make all defensive Adv.R all more interesting instead of just the Protoss'.
*) The Terran Adv.R defense can potentially make all Bunkers, Missile Turrets and Perdition Turrets with 13 armor (1 base + 2 terran armor + 10 adv.r) enforcing heavy units to get through them.
*) The Zerg Adv.R defense would gain a total of +250 life and +30 regen with 5 levels. The heavy regen easily makes Spore Crawlers and Spine Crawlers targets for a deadly crusade or you don't poke them at all. Any middle ground would just be negated by their insane high regeneration.
*) The Adv.R "Shadow Phasing Prism" allows Warp Prism to be permanently ONLY in Phasing mode. Transport Mode doesn't count for cloak. Requires Lv4 Adv.R.

Potencial future modifications :
#) Should eventually fix that Ultralisk damage for b.net purposes (shows right for local testing but still anti-armored upgrades over b.net)
#) I know I would still have to somewhat fix the Aegis' weapon without dropping Mac users.

[Ricky_Honejasi]

So a few last minute extra updates :

- Did a workaround to make the Ultralisk get the damage values I wanted over B.net. Since the +2 armored gain was kind of "hard coded" (thus not replaceable by +2 light), I had to add the extra values of -2 armored (to nullify the +2) and +2 light.

As the ultralisk stands, it got its speed buffed by 0.30 to 3.25 (basically the speed upgrade given for free). It now have a base damage of 25, 35 vs light and 45 vs structures. With 6 weapon upgrades, it now reaches 37 base, 59 vs light and 81 vs structures. While it sucks more vs armored (ex : Thors), it becomes a much more reasonable unit vs light and structures.

- Also fixed the Prison Phoenix's Void Prison ability to no longer effect buildings.

- Also put the temporally weapon of Aegis' attack speed from 0.25 to 0.20 as a temporally buff until I concretely do something about it (that doesn't drop Macs).

- I tried to fix the fake icon of Carriers' Interceptor research that you get after you get it once but despite my modifications, it seems it doesn't seem to want to go away.