StarCraft II Official! (Pictures)

[UntamedLoli]

Rule #1: Gameplay > Logic

Logic didn't go anywhere, it has no relation to unit survival beyond Larvae.

[IskatuMesk]

Are you kidding? Undead were one of the easiest races to rush in wc3 because of how vulnerable acolytes were.

Personally I think bases should be more defendable and the game less rush-centric like command&fail 3.

[mAc Chaos]

I don't know if I'm that good at the game, but when I started out they were vulnerable, since as an Undead player the Blademaster's whirlwind ability was the bane of my existence.  But as I got better it became a non-issue, kind of like something that both players only skirted around as an obligatory effort and then passed on to the next phase of the game because there were no openings.  The item shop's invisibility revealing items basically shuts down the Blademaster, which is the biggest Undead rusher, and everything else can get taken care of by micro and your towers.

[Anonymous]

Bladestorm... if the Blademaster is level 6, that's not a rush, that's end-game.

Unless you mean windwalk. I assume by whirlwind you mean bladestorm.

But in any case you can rush with any manner of heroes and acolytes are quite screwed.

Most of the time it was far seers, AM's or MK's.

[mAc Chaos]

Oops, yeah, I meant windwalk.  It's been a while.  You can't rush with a final ability.

[Meta]

Rushing is a big part of SC gameplay - the fact that you can kill an opponent in 5 minutes is a big difference between it and WC3. Yeah, there are quick games in WC3 where a guy screws up and lets his hero die, but in SC units such as Zerglings and Zealots can actually kill not only units, but buildings. Being able to rush, and to defend rushes, is much of what SC melee is about; mid game harassment coming as a close second. Too bad the Protoss lost the Reaver, which was its main harassment unit.

[IskatuMesk]

SC2 is becoming a lot more rush-oriented then what SC1 is. You can see a lot of cute play early-game in SC1 but a game with two equal opponents can last a very long time, while in sc2 they're trying to dramatically cut that down which is the wrong thing to do imo.

[WB]

Well they gave Terrans Supply Depots that can burrow into the ground (not to mention being able to build a retarded number of marines FAST), and protoss can build ground units anywhere in a pylon energy field, and can make energy fields anywhere on the map now. But its OP if zerg can move faster in their own base? if you suck enough to let an overlord fly into your base and start taking a shit, you deserve to have super-cracklings running around your base raping your SCVs.

[Anonymous]

I'm not even worried about overlords. I'm talking about defense-wise.

I also like how,

zerg can move faster in their own base?

to let an overlord fly into your base and start taking a shit

lol contradictions

Also supply depots don't even compare to a 30% speed boost. Not even close. Any race can choose to wall off a location if they want. Not every race can tape rockets onto ultralisks and instantly gangbang an intruder.

A minor speed decrease on enemies makes many times more sense than a speed increase on your units both lore-wise and mechanically, and I imagine that is where this will soon go to.

[Hercanic]

I wouldn't call that a contradiction, per-say. Overlords can generate creep. Thus both defensive and offensive creep can be utilized to take advantage of the speed boost.

[Anonymous]

Yes, but offensively, you can counter it very easily. Just shoot the overlords. It stops channeling if they move. Defensively, you are so screwed if you so much as even pass wind in a zerg's base. Banelings and ultralisks in particular jump to mind as becoming incredibly overpowered when given any kind of a speed boost of this nature. Speed is an extremely important factor in balance.

/e

Out of curiousity did this speed boost apply to air units as well? Can you imagine Jaedong or July with super mutas? Good grief...

[Hercanic]

You can't really call something unbalanced using theorycraft alone. However, without numbers, if we compare the speed boost to the suggested health boost again, it is health that would actually be more unbalancing. Most units must stop moving to attack. That means their advantage ceases to exist once engaged in combat. There is some mico potential with ranged units against melee units, or against units whose shots can otherwise be dodged (Lurker). For melee units, speed allows them to close the distance gap against ranged units faster, saving some initial health and making retreat harder for the aggressors, but once attacking speed does not help. Contrast that with health regen. Each point regenerated essentially nullifies damage dealt. A regen boost would be comparable to elevating the hit points of Zerg units on creep, or reducing damage against them (though not exactly since regen also affords quicker recuperation). That advantage stacks with attacking. Speed and attacking are mutually exclusive for most units, but regen and attacking work simultaneously. So, numbers aside, if you assume a creep-based speed boost to be overpowered, then logically a health boost would be even moreso. Same with enemy slowdown, which I covered in my earlier post.

Zerg in SC never really had the best defense, in my opinion. The Protoss had the simplest and most versatile defense. Terrans arguably had the strongest, though it cost supply. A bunker was tougher than a Photon Cannon, but just as versatile when loaded with Marines, though it could specialize in anti-melee with Firebats. Its placement wasn't restricted to anything, unlike the Photon Cannon with Pylons or the even more restrictive Colonies with Creep (Hatchery = 300m, Pylon = 100m). Terrans Missile Turrets were half as tough as a Spore Coloney, but its price reflected as much, and personally with anti-air I'd rather have cheaper, weaker anti-air that I can spread out and cover more ground than one stronger, concentrated point of power. There are no choke points for air units, so covering as much area as possible is most essential. Terrans also have Supply Depots, which can act as cheap walls against melee units (the comparably-priced Protoss Pylon and Zerg Creep Colony are smaller). Finally, Terrans have the power of Siege Tanks, who need no explanation. Zerg have the strongest no-supply defensive buildings, but they are the most restricted in placement when dealing with broken terrain (cliffs, water), and are the least versatile without much price difference (25min more to cover both air and ground for Protoss, yet 2 Terran Missile Turrets = 1 Spore Colony in price and health, yet the Missile Turrets can cover more ground, are smaller and can be placed anywhere, deal more damage, and a few SCVs can extend their life in times of need). Zerg defense heavily relies on its unit production. Bonus creep speed really emphasizes that.

[Anonymous]

In SC, speed makes all the difference ZvT. In order to penetrate that ball of death you need to get into them. The reaction speed and micro makes all the difference in surrounding the marines with your lings and ultras. If, in regular sc, Creep suddenly provided a 30% movespeed bonus, zerg would be unkillable in a defensive situation. Lurkers and sunkens are already the strongest form of land defense you can get, as Sunkens do Normal damage, as opposed to bunkers whose dps will be spread out and highly ineffective against units larger than a handful of zerglings. Having observed ZvT a hell of a lot I can make a pretty strong guess on how ZvT will play out in sc2 with knowledge currently provided by both videos and reviews of TSL staff and pro gamers.

The 30% movespeed is ridiculous. Health regen may not be so great either, but picture this. Let's say, for example, the zerg in SC can build infested terrans. Now imagine those infested terrans moving as fast as a crackling. What is your counter against infested terrans? killing them before they get to you. What is your counter against cracklings? Killing them before they get to you. Because if they get to you, heads will roll. This is a key micro-intensive form of balance in the game, and speed is one of the most paramount aspects. It's why speed upgrades on zerglings and zeals are extremely important and can make or break the entire game. Even a 15% movespeed bonus is going to be completely gamebreaking. Why?

First the zerg must be balanced on an open playing field. In a game as extremely closely balanced as Starcraft, even so much as adding or removing a single damage value on any given unit will change the game. Imagine, if you will, rockets with ultralisks taped onto them, now with an aoe cleave, flying around the base anally raping anything that so much as peaks its head out of under a rock. Suddenly you've given the "defenseless zerg" the means to completely surround their enemy without even trying, not only eliminating the skill needed to defend whichever position you're in but also making your units extremely difficult to react against.

No, it doesn't change combat stats, but it brings your units to bear faster, meaning they take less damage, they surround the enemy way faster (and with sc2's unit AI apparently surrounding is already ridiculously easy as it is, especially with speed lings), and the enemy cannot react.

Everything is theorycraft until the game hits beta and is handed to progamers. It's proven that Blizzard's employees can't even play their own game well at all, as their best players were humiliated in Paris. The game will dramatically change once it starts being really balanced and I can guarantee you the movespeed bonus is going to go bye-bye.

/e

Also let's not forget Nydus worms. The creep movespeed bonus kind of makes nydus worms a bit less useful and key in zerg strategy. Suddenly their mobility is absolutely insane. Is that the wisest move to make? I don't think so personally.

[Lavarinth]

I believe the Nydus worm no longer moves, I believe it's just a building.

[IskatuMesk]

It is just a building. But it's serving a more pronounced role than the canal did.