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Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:55 am
by Jee-Host[gm]
Hey, I've been following your production for couple of years now, and I tell you what - I'd rather watch you derp at puzzles than see random otherwise sensible guy nutcrack puzzles while praising Dark Souls (like a lot of them do). So yeah, keep up the good work, I don't mind puzzle inconvenience...
In the hindsight: during R-Type 3 (and Earthbound as well) video you've brought up a distinct topic about factual manipulation during localization of Japanese games in particular. And - yeah - I've seen that in a particular SMT Persona series. Remember that company - Atlus? Well, way before they've descended into the bowels of western crusty anus and started doing Demon Souls and whatnot, they've made Persona games, which are surprisingly interesting in the fact that despite the presence of typical JRPG grind you actually don't have to do it if you're taking time to understand how things work (one of the reasons I like CD-projekt RED and their hardcore buggy but interesting Witcher games - for instance in Witcher 2 you can beat a lot of stuff relatively easily IF you amend your tactics approaching that particular battle, but if you're casual and incapable (like I am) - you can farm for bombs and spam those in difficult battles non-stop thus win). But since Demon Souls Atlus decided to reboot those older games with support of newer consoles - great idea on it's own, considering that they've also added some more lore-related stuff, upgraded menus, arts, soundtracks and whatnot, voiced more of the dialogue in some cases. Naturally - that also required re-localization. And since now it's not outsourced (which is also not a bad thing on it's own, cause you probably know that "original" localizations of Japanese games tend to go places) - localizations became much better. However, that close work with western "culture" corrupted Atlus, made it a company, looming at the edge of the Void, almost touching the Eternal Darkness. Which means that revamped versions are also rebalanced to hold your hand and provide ridiculous amounts of easy-to-get "cool shit" which is utterly imbalanced. Meaning that bosses do no damage and your party does thousands upon thousands of damage. And the only way you can lose is when near the end mobs start using insta-gib spells with various success. But guess what - you can also do that. So yeah - better to play more difficult earlier non-rebalanced versions of this series, if you're going to do it. On the other hand writing in Persona series was always quite interesting and became much more explanatory in later games (3 and particularly 4). Though the overall problem of Atlus remains. When I was playing Persona 4 on normal, I had serious problems with increasing difficulty on bosses up until I've passed a certain point at which game balance started to unravel, in fact so that close to the end I wasn't too worried. Then again though - on Hard difficulty it probably wouldn't be so easy near the end, cause some guys can flat out 1-shot you if they manage a critical and you were stupid enough to not put up sukukaja. And also - it took me 115 hours to through that game, though I'd say 10-15 of them were spent re-rolling persona fusion inherited abilities (RNG man, I hate it and love it - sorts out casuals in this case) or being afk. All that considering I was using an emulator and its save state cheaty ability. But in the end - it was worth it, I got great experience out that game. And recently Atlus made a reboot of this game on Vita of all thing - and despite the huge amount of extra content it had - battle and dungeons in that version do not require any skill at all - you can basically solo everything at one point (save one specific boss accessible only in New Game Plus - that requires some grind). But enough of me yapping. Just wanted to remark upon that westernization tradition of fucking things up taken to a new level. Wonder how it affects FF series which I've never played. I guess time will tell.
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:05 am
by IskatuMesk
I've only heard a few distant things about persona, certainly not enough to make any real judgement on the games (I actually remembered it as an anime for some reason).
Final fantasy is... well, from what I've played, sort of a mixed bag. Some people seem to really hate on 13 for some reason, but I try not to read into things too deeply when it concerns a game I eventually intend to run. I only have the first game, and there's, what, 3 of them now? Somehow I think they're just running with some gimmick. Couldn't tell you when I'll get to it, but it won't be for a long time. From what I know, 3 aka 6 or 6 aka 3 whatever the hell happened there, is universally regarded to be very good if not the best of the series. 7 is the one played extensively in my youth, and while for a long time I considered it good, I don't know if it will stand up to my modern critique.
I played a little of witcher 1 and don't remember it being extremely buggy, but it is using the aurora engine - it's amazing they managed to scrape anything out of that in the first place. I've seen some really funny bugs out of witcher 2, though, since HKS sent me footage from it I used in an XXE a while back.
Localization is a problem not just in games but anime and stuff as well. There's no real goal in most studios to maintain the original vision of the creators, only censor and in some case mold the material for focused marketing. From what I understand, for example, Sonic is a really big victim of this.
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:03 pm
by wibod
SMT games and Persona have always been balanced around buffs and debuffs, also I'm pretty sure P4G is equivalent to P3FES in that it's a port with extra content and otherwise is unchanged.
New Difficulty levels similar to Persona 3 Portable. On New Game+, the player can change and even customize the difficulty levels for individual game elements in the configuration menu. The pre-set levels of difficulty are:
Safety (Very Easy in NA Version)
Easy (Left untouched in NA Version, used to be called Beginner)
Normal
Hard (Left untouched in NA Version, used to be Expert)
Risky (Very Hard in NA Version)
Also Waifu Simulator 3 and 4 were always the casual SMT series as they're completely different when compared to Persona 1 and 2, DDS and the mainline SMT series.
I'd also like to point out that almost all Japanese versions of games are easier than the western localization.
You should probably know you're a faggot if you really think Atlus is the worst company ever because they published Demon's Souls.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Atlus_games
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:14 pm
by IskatuMesk
There's pretty much no room for forgiveness for publishing demon's souls. Have some goddamn standards.
I don't know which games you are referring to in terms of being easier, but it's pretty common for western localizations to make games a lot easier than their Japanese counterparts (see: most arcade ports, mario, etc).
Japanese versions end up being easier when the localization is done by an incompetent company that ends up fucking things up when they censor/butcher things (R-type 3 second boss). Hell, there's a ton of Japanese games that never get localized simply because the west thinks they are too hard (and the only reason demon's souls got a localization was because it was trying to appeal to the west to begin with).
/edit
That AWP is now up.
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:29 am
by wibod
It seems like some games - especially Capcom titles like Devil May Cry 3 – are made more difficult for the Western audience. Why is this, and why does it seem like the Japanese tend to favor easier titles?
Inafune: There are two reasons for the difficulty changes. The first one is from a business perspective. Western markets also have rental markets. If you make a game that is too easy, it will become a rental instead of a purchase and the game's sales will suffer. Thus, those on the business side of things often request that games be made harder to counter-act the rental market. The second reason is from a design standpoint. Western gamers like to challenge things. If a game is very difficult, they view beating it as a triumph over a sort of foe. Japanese gamers will quit if a game is too hard. They want an RPG where you never die. If you play an RPG correctly, you should not die. That is the point. Most RPGs are not concerned with raising your skill, they are concerned with raising your EXP - Experience. I think that Japanese companies are slowly losing the ability to make hard games that still appeal to Japanese users, and this is evidenced by the decline in sales of action games as Japanese users lose interest in challenging higher difficulty levels.
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:27 am
by IskatuMesk
"western gamers like to challenge things" I don't think anyone could lie harder if they tried, why else is casual gaming such a thing?
Also, you seem to forget what they did to DMC.
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:06 pm
by Jee-Host[gm]
wibod wrote:SMT games and Persona have always been balanced around buffs and debuffs, also I'm pretty sure P4G is equivalent to P3FES in that it's a port with extra content and otherwise is unchanged.
Well, you obviously haven't played P4G. Tell me could you in P4 simply press one button repeatedly at any point in the game in any dungeon to have free SP? Did P4 have automatic fusion spells that activate randomly and OP damage? Did Rise have 1 save from insta-gib for every party member per battle, or did she have free random status ailment heals just for the fuck of it? Could you CHOOSE what skills you inherit when fusing personas in P4? Did you have persona skill cards in P4? Could you change you party's persona skills at your whim? And so on and so forth.
Come on, man, all that seems like cheating when compared to original P4.
Same goes for revamp of Innocent Sin. So much damn hand-holding.
As for 'balanced around buffs and de-buffs'. I didn't feel that in P2. Maybe in P3 somewhat. P4 - at most you'd need Masukukaja and Marakunda. Latter is more important than former. Also I distinctly remember running into the most imba shit in my first playthrough. When you get that star persona, what his face? Kaiwan? That dude has Tetrakarn which under skill change mutated into a fucking Victory Cry for me. Now how is that tested? That skill should only exist for fun NG+ messing around, not for actual run. Saved me a lot of stand-offs with low-level enemies on Invigorate. But what do I know, right?
wibod wrote:Also Waifu Simulator 3 and 4 were always the casual SMT series as they're completely different when compared to Persona 1 and 2, DDS and the mainline SMT series.
Well, I did play both P2 games, but I do not recall them having ACTUAL difficulty comparably beyond P3 and P4. There are stuff there that is outright broken and untested. For instance stats are utterly NON-EQUAL in their weight. Some of the personas and fusion spell are simply overpowered. A lot of ye oldie goodie RNG is involved heavily in some aspects of battles (especially in Eternal Punishment). Not claiming to be an expert on other SMT titles, but I know what I've played and how it felt. If you disagree - well, whoop-ti do what I can do about it? We don't have to have mutual understanding.
wibod wrote:I'd also like to point out that almost all Japanese versions of games are easier than the western localization.
Didn't play as many of them to judge. Don't know Japanese either so I usually don't play them in Japanese unless I have to. Early games with western localizations due to market specifics probably weren't changed in difficulty too much if at all. And surely not made harder if arcades are any indication. That just doesn't seem plausible. Maybe now it does happen. But if someone will come to me and say like "ya know - Dark Souls is hard game, but Japanese version is easier" - I'd laugh in their face.
I never said that I'm an expert on Japanese games or games in general. But you really took this close to heart, didn't you? I never said that I hate Atlusor that I think them to be the worst company ever or that I regard Demon Souls to be the worst game they've made. My fancy Russian accent and taste for words thrown off your crocodile nose, perhaps? So quit putting words in my mouth, mun. And also - you're a faggot yourself. Wanna make out?
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:10 pm
by IskatuMesk
Wibod is too busy sucking up to martin to make out with you, but if you put a drop of vodka in his water supply I'm sure he'd fold at first light
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:31 pm
by wibod
Also, you seem to forget what they did to DMC.
Oh I haven't forgot, but it's not like DmC was dumbed down or anything from the Japanese release, they were the same shit. On the other hand DMC3 and DMC4 were harder in their original English localizations than their Japanese localizations. Also the quote very specifically mentioned older games, and how renting doesn't exist in Japan and why things were dicked with.
There's also things like MGS where the Easy mode in MURRICA is the Normal mode nippon.
Jee-Host[gm] wrote:wibod wrote:SMT games and Persona have always been balanced around buffs and debuffs, also I'm pretty sure P4G is equivalent to P3FES in that it's a port with extra content and otherwise is unchanged.
Well, you obviously haven't played P4G. Tell me could you in P4 simply press one button repeatedly at any point in the game in any dungeon to have free SP? Did P4 have automatic fusion spells that activate randomly and OP damage? Did Rise have 1 save from insta-gib for every party member per battle, or did she have free random status ailment heals just for the fuck of it? Could you CHOOSE what skills you inherit when fusing personas in P4? Did you have persona skill cards in P4? Could you change you party's persona skills at your whim? And so on and so forth.
Come on, man, all that seems like cheating when compared to original P4.
Same goes for revamp of Innocent Sin. So much damn hand-holding.
As for 'balanced around buffs and de-buffs'. I didn't feel that in P2. Maybe in P3 somewhat. P4 - at most you'd need Masukukaja and Marakunda. Latter is more important than former. Also I distinctly remember running into the most imba shit in my first playthrough. When you get that star persona, what his face? Kaiwan? That dude has Tetrakarn which under skill change mutated into a fucking Victory Cry for me. Now how is that tested? That skill should only exist for fun NG+ messing around, not for actual run. Saved me a lot of stand-offs with low-level enemies on Invigorate. But what do I know, right?
wibod wrote:Also Waifu Simulator 3 and 4 were always the casual SMT series as they're completely different when compared to Persona 1 and 2, DDS and the mainline SMT series.
Well, I did play both P2 games, but I do not recall them having ACTUAL difficulty comparably beyond P3 and P4. There are stuff there that is outright broken and untested. For instance stats are utterly NON-EQUAL in their weight. Some of the personas and fusion spell are simply overpowered. A lot of ye oldie goodie RNG is involved heavily in some aspects of battles (especially in Eternal Punishment). Not claiming to be an expert on other SMT titles, but I know what I've played and how it felt. If you disagree - well, whoop-ti do what I can do about it? We don't have to have mutual understanding.
http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Persona_4_Golden
I don't have a vita so I haven't played P4G, and I don't care enough to search beyond the first page of google to see if it really is easier, but it doesn't seem to be.
wibod wrote:I'd also like to point out that almost all Japanese versions of games are easier than the western localization.
Didn't play as many of them to judge. Don't know Japanese either so I usually don't play them in Japanese unless I have to. Early games with western localizations due to market specifics probably weren't changed in difficulty too much if at all. And surely not made harder if arcades are any indication. That just doesn't seem plausible. Maybe now it does happen. But if someone will come to me and say like "ya know - Dark Souls is hard game, but Japanese version is easier" - I'd laugh in their face.
Home console games were made harder due to the rental markets on the early consoles, and even more recent titles like DMC and MGS have the japanese hard modes being the normal modes in the west.
I never said that I'm an expert on Japanese games or games in general. But you really took this close to heart, didn't you? I never said that I hate Atlusor that I think them to be the worst company ever or that I regard Demon Souls to be the worst game they've made. My fancy Russian accent and taste for words thrown off your crocodile nose, perhaps? So quit putting words in my mouth, mun. And also - you're a faggot yourself. Wanna make out?
Atlus didn't make Demon's Souls, they published it, there's a big difference, it's why Namco published Dark Souls. I think you need to get more mad about my horde of shekels comrade.
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:06 pm
by Jee-Host[gm]
I don't have a vita so I haven't played P4G, and I don't care enough to search beyond the first page of google to see if it really is easier, but it doesn't seem to be.
That is similar behavior to that of Ben Kuchera in your signature. Just load some random battle from any LP on youtube. Oh, yeah, and if you didn't care - you wouldn't care to even reply to me. But oh, wait, that would make sense. Can't have that.
Atlus didn't make Demon's Souls, they published it, there's a big difference, it's why Namco published Dark Souls. I think you need to get more mad about my horde of shekels comrade.
Well, excuse me for not being so apt and refined in English as you native-speakers. So much consideration on your part. You really thought through that response. I can respect that. No amount of gesheft will sooth your hutspa it seems. But, oh, well, if I had a nickel every time someone gets butthurt arguing with me for no reason or picks on me cause i'm Russian... As Mesk says - LOL EX DI. Pun intended.
Wibod is too busy sucking up to martin to make out with you, but if you put a drop of vodka in his water supply I'm sure he'd fold at first light
I already feel yearning for that shaft. it must be a real handful. No wonder you named a dog in Earthbound that certain way - now I comprehend why. Thanks for the tip.
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:16 pm
by IskatuMesk
This is what I feel like wibod is doing when he suggests Atlus is redeemable after ever consorting with Demon's Souls.
Sorry, but publishing bad is empowering bad, which is just as bad as making bad. There's no difference. Stay mad, baddie.
/edit
The only instance I have heard of in which American games/localizations tended to be harder than Japanese are arcades, which is where Americans went the greedy route and either set arcade games on way too high a difficulty as standard or made really cheap ass games to suck money from people. One of the reasons why arcades failed in the west, ofc.
Also, Americans commonly complained about DMC1 being too hard, yet both DMC1 and 2 on the hardest available difficulty on startup are some of the easiest ARPG's I've ever played if not the easiest. There may be edge cases where Americans get the harder difficulties as standard, but this doesn't really contribute to the picture as a whole in which American localizations and native games are, generally, easier than Japanese localizations and natives.
While this is likely a trend that ended with the old consoles, the very fact the new DMC is what it is paints a very clear picture of how America influences the game market. The whole fad of playing games on shitty cellphones polluted that a lot further and now there's extremely few companies that can be trusted to make decent games in the first place.
I propose that the extension of Japanese making localizations to Americans a harder difficulty is that games as a whole were simply becoming easier and easier as time went on.
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:03 pm
by wibod
Jee-Host[gm] wrote:I don't have a vita so I haven't played P4G, and I don't care enough to search beyond the first page of google to see if it really is easier, but it doesn't seem to be.
That is similar behavior to that of Ben Kuchera in your signature. Just load some random battle from any LP on youtube. Oh, yeah, and if you didn't care - you wouldn't care to even reply to me. But oh, wait, that would make sense. Can't have that.
The difference is that it's not my job, I'm just some guy shitposting on a forum.
Atlus didn't make Demon's Souls, they published it, there's a big difference, it's why Namco published Dark Souls. I think you need to get more mad about my horde of shekels comrade.
Well, excuse me for not being so apt and refined in English as you native-speakers. So much consideration on your part. You really thought through that response. I can respect that. No amount of gesheft will sooth your hutspa it seems. But, oh, well, if I had a nickel every time someone gets butthurt arguing with me for no reason or picks on me cause i'm Russian... As Mesk says - LOL EX DI. Pun intended.
I ain't even mad. Your anal anguish is visible from orbit though.
Also lol if you seriously think I'm picking on you for living in a forest surrounded by frozen grizzly dongs and drunken conscripts.
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:04 pm
by IskatuMesk
Frozen grizzly dongs are just protein-rich popsicles.
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:05 pm
by wibod
Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:46 am
by Jee-Host[gm]
Mesk,
Really liked some of that Retribution material you've shown in Coffee Hour video. Especially some ship explosions are much better now compared to Salvation. Now it looks to me that if you can do these kinds of various explosions - there is much more room to maneuver when it comes to camera work. Since you say that moving camera always tend to look jerky, I can see a couple of reusable approaches to static camera use thanks to new particles, muzzle flashes and specifically ship explosions. I'm not sure how good ship close-ups can be considering questionable shadows, but I find that hinting a presence of a say capital ship or even having it somewhere on the foreground, not necessarily in focus of the scene will keep most of such shots alive. And there of course are good old shots concentrated on specific big guns or batteries unloading without showing the target. I feel these belong in the start of the whole unloading, early stages of the battle, to demonstrate what exactly their opponents are facing. And with the increased amount of gun everywhere - that should become even more juicy and maybe easier to produce as a shot, cause in many of them there is no need to worry about something going on in the background.
You've probably thought of all that yourself, but in case you didn't: I think that even though battles of the same kinda type should naturally follow the same basic principle - your addition of very distinct and incomparable races gives a room for additional creativity in terms of general flow of the battle. Any battle with big numbers against big numbers eventually ends up in spread out skirmishes. And to make something believable - you need it to make sense. I'm not calling for masterful cinematography, obviously, but I imagine you've envisioned your universe vividly enough to make races distinguishable in their ways (not only by design) to the point which includes mentality within battle which either demonstrates or hints their (races) nature.
Oh, man, last time you talked about customizing things I see already done to some extent in Retribution it didn't seem that it will be doable (at least from what I understood from your text comments). So I have to say I'm more interested how this project eventually plays out. Good luck with this effort, I really mean it.
wibod,
I'm sure you can do better than this. Or did your everpresent anal ragnarok dull your senses so much that you can't even string together a worthwhile taunt? Current display makes you look like someone who constantly fails at trolling and gets rectally challenged for getting called on it. If you're gonna shitpost like you claim - at least make it look like you're actually doing it, don't be so miserable. I almost cried from pity.