BlizzCon

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Thalraxal
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by Thalraxal »

AA7Dragoon wrote:
Lavarinth wrote:I just got my ass handed to me by Blizzard. I will never ask another panel question.
Yeah, that was awful. I actually went through the YouTube videos, found the clip of you in it, and cried afterwards. It's not like Blizzard didn't refute your question, it's just that it was so badly worded and vague, that they didn't know how to answer it.

It's a good thing you're cute. :explain:
Yeah, I saw it too. I thought Lav handled himself well enough. His initial question was a bit vague, but he defined himself better pretty quickly. The guys on the Q&A panel seemed pretty slow to pick up on what he was asking though. One guy even repeated "singleplayer custom campaigns" and thought Lav was asking about the Official Campaign.

I got the impression that they just didn't expect any questions regarding singleplayer custom campaigns and got blindsided by it. I skimmed past the other questions till I found Lavarinth, and they spent more time on some of the more simple questions than they did on Lav's. It seems like they did want to give more indepth answers to the questions asked, so it strikes me as odd that they'd "soon" him so quickly unless they really didn't have an answer.
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by Lavarinth »

I finished my question, Herc.

And yes, standing up there is daunting at the least. It'd of been fine were it not for the massive reverb effect that takes over your own mind.
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by IskatuMesk »

They don't have an answer or expect an answer because virtually no one makes mods or campaigns anymore. The problem compounds itself.
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by Hercanic »

StarCraft 2 Custom Maps conclusion: Perhaps the capabilities of editing are so extreme that they are indeed considered... Mods.
All right, I have to get in on this.

Maps and mods are separate concepts. Blizzard is trying to equivocate the two, but doing so destroys the meaning of these two words. DOTA for Warcraft III is a map, but Blizzard wants to call it a mod based on the extent of its gameplay changes. If I were to make a map in Warcraft III that increases the health of a Human Footman, thereby changing gameplay, is that now a "mod"? After all, I've done more than just terrain! What if I altered the health of two units, three, ten, or even all units? How much do I have to change, and to what extent, before we can call my map a mod by Blizzard's definition? What if instead of altering any gameplay, my map just has a new 3D model for the Human Footman? What if I change the lore by calling them Men of Gondor?

In Starcraft 1's campaign, you have what are called "Commando missions" where you navigate the inside of a building complex with either a single unit or a small squad. There is no base building, resource mining, or any other fundamentals of Starcraft's RTS gameplay beyond unit micro. Is this map now a mod, because it changes standard gameplay? How about the missions where you control units with enhanced health (heroes or ultra-units, like Hunter-Killer Hydralisks)? Or how about missions where there's a new, unique building graphic (Xel'Naga Temple)?

Where do you draw this subjective line between a map and a mod? Or are the terms to be synonyms?

The game Oblivion, by Bethesda, has a mod that adds thousands of beautifully detailed book covers to the many books that abound in the game. It does not affect gameplay or lore, but changes the textures of a tiny aspect of the game that is there only for flavor and immersion. Despite this limited effect, it can only be called a mod. Why?

Mechanically, a mod is a (typically temporary) modification to the game engine or core data files, replacing/adding content/code.

Wikipedia Article

Mods can replace or add new content to the underlying game (such as with the Oblivion example), they can create an entirely new game atop the original game's engine (like with Counter-Strike on Half-Life 1), or they can even apply bug fixes as an unofficial patch. These changes exist, structurally, above the map layer, therefore affecting all maps (or a subset of maps, depending on intent, such as with entirely new games like Counter-Strike).

Can DOTA be a mod? Yes, but so long as it only exists on the map layer, no matter how powerful the map editor becomes, it is still a map. It is not the extent of data or asset change that qualifies something as a mod, as Blizzard would have you believe (look at the Oblivion example), it is its place in the engine's structural hierarchy.
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by Dread »

:monocle: TL;DR.
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by IskatuMesk »

Herc > amen
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by Lavarinth »

The only scrap of hope you have left to define a "map" to a "mod" is this whole "only on one map" spiel, really? You're all begging for a reason to argue. Argue all you want, the basic premise of modding is within the game as is already. You can easily copy the content over to any and all maps yourself. The fact it currently doesn't "preload" into all maps is all you have... Well, that's simply because all mods don't work properly in all maps, so you design map terrain to work with mods.

Aside all these arguments, the "mod" loader for loading information off an external data not contained in a map will be available at some point, so get your panties out of a twist that it's not released YET and believing that it wont ever be. You're arguing for the sake of being right, when in fact, the ability to do exactly what you wish will eventually be available to you.
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by IskatuMesk »

sorry bro but you couldn't be more wrong

We have absolutely no confirmation of any kind of mod loader existing at this time other than your conjecture.

also btw arbitrary size limits gun down every single thing you could possibly say in defense of the current system
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by Lavarinth »

IskatuMesk wrote:We have absolutely no confirmation of any kind of mod loader existing at this time other than your conjecture.
Or anyone else at BlizzCon for the past three years. Blizzard HQ was the only place I saw the mod loader actually implemented during Beta, where you could select Liberty (and Liberty only). Your choice to believe what you will.
IskatuMesk wrote:also btw arbitrary size limits gun down every single thing you could possibly say in defense of the current system
Size limits that are constantly under discussion for revision due to situation like models, sound, etc being implemented? I wouldn't worry about that.
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by IskatuMesk »

Oh noes, a single person has told me what he thinks someone might be doing for a demonstration on a private network in Blizzcon! I better just stop right the fuck what I'm doing and throw down everything I've seen and been told for the entire duration of the company's existence and my involvement with them!

Sorry bro it takes more than your good word to put me at ease.
discussion for revision
Kiddo, revision doesn't mean removal. So long as there is no local hosting Blizzard has to have enforced size restrictions to save on their bandwidth. So long as such a system exists no form of custom content, be it a map or mod, will be able to express itself fully. Period.

Now I'm waiting for Dread or WB to sweep into this thread and throw in their own troll lines, because none of you can miss the chance to take a swing at me in this subject! Come on, give it your best shot.
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by UntamedLoli »

What part of "sometime between now and legacy of the void" wasn't clear?

Who is the one grasping at straws here? What don't you understand about us having a limited number of maps for each every mod we make and that each mod takes one of those slots?

Theres 10 slots with 52.4MB of storage right now, Undying Fury a SC1 mod that is 129MB on its own without any maps at all. When in this fantasy universe of yours are we going to allowed to upload that with 20 seperate maps?

How about 3 other mods with copies of those 20 maps? What rock were they living under all these years?

This wouldn't even be an issue if Blizzard wasn't going batshit insane banning everyone over stupid shit, try to imagine for a moment if any part of MFTG was uploaded. They forced all the liability on themselves forcing everyone to put everything on Battle.net.

How about that one guy at the Q&A being told to go independantly promote his map on his own website because the devs don't even use SC2's system, thats the same Blizzard you are telling us it will all be fine along with them not even knowing what to say about single player campaigns that this entire website revolves around.

Yes I am pissed off at Blizzard, anything I wanted to do I can't because they couldn't leave the community aspect to us because they need absolute control at which point they will proceed to not give a shit about us just like SC1 in a few years.

We can't even get a half assed response about going around this games meaningless limitations other than you telling us just wait a few years and their actions themselves telling us we are truely screwed over, did I mention game variants are still broken and you have no lobby control from within your map but they want to add more features instead?
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by Archangel »

Honestly, what this discussion has devolved to is

People against Blizzard: "Blizzard is wrong and here are detailed lists and explanations as to why..."

People for Blizzard: "I have chosen to love Blizzard and/or have backed myself into a PR's nightmare corner and therefore nothing you say will change my posture of open mouth beneath the ass of Chris Metzen in waiting awe for the endless shit he feeds me. Nom nom nom."

Seriously, Blizzard charged us out the ass for their piece of shit "$100,000,000 story" and they run it like a fucking gestapo. You can't do this. You can't do that. You shut the fuck up. We're amazing. Oh by the way, we're throwing a great big party in honor of the size of our dick, and you're invited for $300 or you can watch all the fun we're having for the price of our games brand new."

Fuck them. For real. Fuck. Them.

I don't even touch StarCraft 2 anymore. It's just not interesting. I had really high hopes and they took a gigantic shit on them. There was so much to offer from this game, but you know what? Ever since we made them what they were with Starcraft 1, they've been on a snowball's ride to douchedome with their releases. Their "we're better than you" MMORPG, then they're "We're still better than you" endorsement of a StarCraft game going console only, then their "we're continuing to be better than you" release of their cash cow MMORPG expansion before anything else. And then ANOTHER expansion?

Seriously, how much shit are you going to keep eating from these assholes?

I'll be playing League of Legends. For free.

Having said that, give Lav a fucking break. What do you expect him to say? Yes, he's our insider spy to this evil league of evil, but he has to walk on egg shells to keep that badge. If it were me, I'd take a bullet in the name of my own integrity, but that's because I'm reckless. Sure it's a bridge I wouldn't mind burning, but it isn't my bridge. And it's not yours. It's his. I'm sure that everything Lav says is done with a wink and a nod.
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by IskatuMesk »

If I were Lav I'd just not talk about things I can't back up or go into any detail about because I know it wouldn't do me any good to say them in the first place because I'm getting said information as heresay from random individuals who have no final say in the matter of implementing X or N feature. It's totally pointless to even talk about things that are mere conjecture and have absolutely no bearing on anything we are doing here until, at the very least, they are officially announced and directly demonstrated as opposed to just "oh well MAYBE this works this way and MAYBE we can apply it to this.."

Then trying to defend that just works you into bigger of a hole and causes everyone else to lose giving any shit that they might have had for anything you could say there or thereafter.
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by Lavarinth »

;) :)
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Re: BlizzCon

Post by Meta »

Hunter_Killers wrote:What part of "sometime between now and legacy of the void" wasn't clear?
How about that one guy at the Q&A being told to go independantly promote his map on his own website because the devs don't even use SC2's system, thats the same Blizzard you are telling us it will all be fine along with them not even knowing what to say about single player campaigns that this entire website revolves around.

Yes I am pissed off at Blizzard, anything I wanted to do I can't because they couldn't leave the community aspect to us because they need absolute control at which point they will proceed to not give a shit about us just like SC1 in a few years.
I facepalmed hard on that part. "Yeah, disregard our popularity system and just use forums to promote your map! We use this system ourselves".

Yeah, if you'd given us more options to find maps with or, you know, enabled fucking chat channels - something 1998 Bnet featured already - it'd have been much better and spared us all of this headache.

Another facepalming moment of failure was when the dude asked about a possible multiplayer Rexxar-like campaign featuring interlinked maps, and the Blizzard guy - who failed to understand the question initially - just said "omfg that's an awesome idea!". Yeah, you'd think your game would've featured these already, since even WC3 has a couple of fan-made campaigns that can be played in multiplayer, complete with game caches and such. In fact I believe that one reason why campaigns aren't more popular

I think someone asked about proper campaign support but was just downright ignored. Was it Lav? :/

Other than that, I watched half of the lore panel, but it was such a massive egofeeding fest, I didn't bother watching the second video. I'd wanted to see someone with balls, saying "I thought your plot sucked due to reasons A, B and C and I'd want you to comment on it", but then again such a person wouldn't even bother to visit Blizzcon, right? And Blizzard admitting their mistakes isn't something common, either: I was actually surprised when they said that they somewhat failed with the Draenei in WoW. :o

If proper campaign/mod support eventually become available, I can get past these - unless my interest in SC2 dies out on its own first - and start working hardcore on content, but for now, I'm a sitting duck. I figure bigger changes to the game and editor will only become available with HotS, which is ~1,5 year away.
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