Campaign Creations

Maglok wrote: @Magic: Mengsk anwsering to the hybrids, interesting though, but... In the secret mission we see the dominion testing on hybdrids (or even making them). What would you say about that then, it doesn't seem to add up.

I got a "The Dominion captured one of the things and was experimenting on it" vibe from the secret mission.  But if the Mengsk and the Dominion is aligned with the Hybrids, I don't think the Fallen One would have any issues with using the Dominion's resources to create more Hybrids.  I don't think that the Hybrids themselves would have much say in the issue, they're likely just as bound to the Fallen One's will as the Original Overmind was.

I don't think that Mengsk is aligned with the Fallen One yet, but I think he might ally up later.  Espeically if he ends up with his back to the wall (which is the direction things seem to be going in for him).  Mengsk does seem like the kind of person who'd be willing to make a deal with the devil.  I'm pretty sure that Valerian is a good guy, he's got Duran working for him and Duran has so far only worked for people who can mess up the Hybrid/End of the Universe plot (The UED's enslavement of the Zerg and the Second Overmind would have likely prevented or at least hindered the Hybrid's enslavement of the Zerg, and Kerrigan has that whole prophecy thing going).

Master Jademus Sreg wrote:

Magic wrote:PS - I'll bite. Which part of the campaign suggests that the Fallen One is an evil Xel'Naga? I thought it was a reference to Kerrigan until now.

The missions you play from Zeratul's memory crystal thing in the lab.

...

And specifically?

We see one taunting every one in "In Utter Darkness" but that doesn't mean it's the only one. It sounds like I missed something (Like I said, until my last post I thought Fallen One was referring to Kerrigan) so feel free to fill me in, someone.

Maglok wrote: @Magic: Mengsk anwsering to the hybrids, interesting though, but... In the secret mission we see the dominion testing on hybdrids (or even making them). What would you say about that then, it doesn't seem to add up.

Good point. Maybe it's shades of 'Dark Origins' where he's helping to develop or enhance them. Or (complete speculation on my part, here) he covertly captured one and is experimenting in secret. Don't forget what Zeratul (And Egon admits in the Protoss crystal research), that Terrans can't possibly even begin to comprehend the technology of the Protoss, which is what Duran was using.

Thalraxal wrote:

Maglok wrote: @Magic: Mengsk anwsering to the hybrids, interesting though, but... In the secret mission we see the dominion testing on hybdrids (or even making them). What would you say about that then, it doesn't seem to add up.

I got a "The Dominion captured one of the things and was experimenting on it" vibe from the secret mission.  But if the Mengsk and the Dominion is aligned with the Hybrids, I don't think the Fallen One would have any issues with using the Dominion's resources to create more Hybrids.  I don't think that the Hybrids themselves would have much say in the issue, they're likely just as bound to the Fallen One's will as the Original Overmind was.

I don't think that Mengsk is aligned with the Fallen One yet, but I think he might ally up later.  Espeically if he ends up with his back to the wall (which is the direction things seem to be going in for him).  Mengsk does seem like the kind of person who'd be willing to make a deal with the devil.  I'm pretty sure that Valerian is a good guy, he's got Duran working for him and Duran has so far only worked for people who can mess up the Hybrid/End of the Universe plot.

Interesting thoughts!

I would note that it's doubtful Valarien realises that Duran is working for him, though.

(The UED's enslavement of the Zerg and the Second Overmind would have likely prevented or at least hindered the Hybrid's enslavement of the Zerg, and Kerrigan has that whole prophecy thing going).

How? They must have expected the Cerebrates to merge and become the second Overmind and had a contingency to deal with it.

Thalraxal wrote: I don't think that Mengsk is aligned with the Fallen One yet, but I think he might ally up later.  Espeically if he ends up with his back to the wall (which is the direction things seem to be going in for him).  Mengsk does seem like the kind of person who'd be willing to make a deal with the devil.  I'm pretty sure that Valerian is a good guy, he's got Duran working for him and Duran has so far only worked for people who can mess up the Hybrid/End of the Universe plot (The UED's enslavement of the Zerg and the Second Overmind would have likely prevented or at least hindered the Hybrid's enslavement of the Zerg, and Kerrigan has that whole prophecy thing going).

I think inevitably it's going to be all three races against the Hybrids in the end. The Hybrids have already shown they don't have any of the races' best interests in mind, and whatever sort of ragtag alliance there's going to be, Raynor's going to be at the center of it since he now has contact with all three races through Valerian, Kerrigan, and Artanis.

One of the things Blizzard kept stressing in interviews is Arcturus Mengsk's story is pretty much done, and the Dominion story is really about Valerian making his own way. I don't expect to see Mengsk do much else in the campaign at all, although I wouldn't be surprised if he kept sending people to kill Kerrigan (and let's face it, the Protoss would, too). Not to mention now that Kerrigan is no longer the Queen of Blades, the Hybrids are most likely going to step in to take control of them, and Heart of the Swarm will be Kerrigan finding a way to contest their control to spawn her own army to counter them.

From everything I have read, the damn plot has quite some vibes from RoC. Plus a few asspulls that just lessen the effect motivations and actions had over the events in the first game, just to blizz can have a retarded big bad that was there all along.

Just like RoC borrowed an awful lot from StarCraft.

Indeed, and that I personally disliked. Blizz is really getting uninspired as of late.

The thing is, the Big Bad Guy Pulling The Strings From the Shadows thing has already been done before with StarCraft: Legacy of the Confederation. I wonder if people accused Oracle of lacking inspiration back then...  ;)

Alevice wrote: Indeed, and that I personally disliked. Blizz is really getting uninspired as of late.

I'm starting to suspect some kinda of Lucas thing going on, where no one is in a spot, or dares to stand up, to offer criticism to the writers or simply to point out that certain aspects are being blatantly repeated. After all, this is Blizzard, man, they're one of the richest developers in the world!.

Most Blizzard sequels seem to have the same segments:

Apparently dead characters come back. Old locations are revisited.

A new big bad evil in the shadows.

Minor events all tied up to a larger plot about the destruction of everything.

Did we do X in the past? Well it happened not because of the events leading up to X like you saw, but actually Y.

The races have to learn to band together to unite against the common foe.

Common foe is barely defeated, status quo resumes to give an excuse for races to fight each other in multiplayer.

johnnythewolf wrote: The thing is, the Big Bad Guy Pulling The Strings From the Shadows thing has already been done before with StarCraft: Legacy of the Confederation. I wonder if people accused Oracle of lacking inspiration back then... 

And I'm doubt LOTC was first.

Though I do remember someone in the campaign (Zeratul?) saying "Destiny awaits".

Magic wrote: Interesting thoughts!

I would note that it's doubtful Valarien realises that Duran is working for him, though.

There's that too.  I doubt that he put "Former Confederate Ghost, Former Leader of the Confederate Resistance Forces, Former Special Advisor the UED and Former Consort of the Queen of Blades" on his resumé as Dr. Narud.

Magic wrote:

(The UED's enslavement of the Zerg and the Second Overmind would have likely prevented or at least hindered the Hybrid's enslavement of the Zerg, and Kerrigan has that whole prophecy thing going).

How? They must have expected the Cerebrates to merge and become the second Overmind and had a contingency to deal with it.

No doubt the Second Overmind could have been controlled the same as the Original one was by the Fallen One, but I think the UED might have messed that up.  While the Hybrids are powerful, he still needs control of the Swarm to accomplish his goals of killing everything.

If the UED had the Overmind drugged out and under their control, the Fallen One might not have been able to control it like he would otherwise have been able to do.  Additionally, its continued surival would have have likely made the Hybrid's usurption more difficult, and not nearly as complete as it was in the future that the Original Overmind saw.

It looks like the Terrans are force outside of the Prophecy, and thus are the best positioned to stop it.  They're a potential spanner in the works, and the UED was a really big freakin' spanner.

RazorclawX wrote:I think inevitably it's going to be all three races against the Hybrids in the end. The Hybrids have already shown they don't have any of the races' best interests in mind, and whatever sort of ragtag alliance there's going to be, Raynor's going to be at the center of it since he now has contact with all three races through Valerian, Kerrigan, and Artanis.

One of the things Blizzard kept stressing in interviews is Arcturus Mengsk's story is pretty much done, and the Dominion story is really about Valerian making his own way. I don't expect to see Mengsk do much else in the campaign at all, although I wouldn't be surprised if he kept sending people to kill Kerrigan (and let's face it, the Protoss would, too). Not to mention now that Kerrigan is no longer the Queen of Blades, the Hybrids are most likely going to step in to take control of them, and Heart of the Swarm will be Kerrigan finding a way to contest their control to spawn her own army to counter them.

Agreed, everyone vs the Hybrids is pretty much a given.

That's a shame about Mengsk, I think there's still alot of potential in his character, so it's kinda disappointing to see him pushed to the side like that.  I hope he has more of a role in the future, but I'm pretty sure you're right about him and his fate.

I think my biggest problem with WoL is that there's plenty of already established villains/antagonists and yet they're ignoring/casting them aside in favour of a "big mysterious evil who's been pulling everyone's strings since the beginning!".  Instead, Kerrigan gets redeemed by sufficiently advanced technology and Mengsk is just being swept under the carpet.

Alevice wrote: From everything I have read, the damn plot has quite some vibes from RoC. Plus a few asspulls that just lessen the effect motivations and actions had over the events in the first game, just to blizz can have a retarded big bad that was there all along.

Blizzard can only tell one story.

But this time we've got someone going from evil to good, so that makes it completely different!

But Blizzard is not the only culprit when it comes to rehashing for the sake of nostalgia; the whole goddamn gaming industry is. Virtually every current franchise right now tends to take the revisionnism route.

But that said, I don't think Blizzard is retconning StarCraft that much. The big revelations in SC2 seem to be a logical continuation of plot points introduced in SC1 and its expansion back then. Heck, I never regarded Zergs "evil" (they're giant bugs driven by instinct) until Kerrigan took over the Swarm and started acting out of revenge and hatred.

johnnythewolf wrote: But Blizzard is not the only culprit when it comes to rehashing for the sake of nostalgia; the whole goddamn gaming industry is. Virtually every current franchise right now tends to take the revisionnism route.

But that said, I don't think Blizzard is retconning StarCraft that much. The big revelations in SC2 seem to be a logical continuation of plot points introduced in SC1 and its expansion back then. Heck, I never regarded Zergs "evil" (they're giant bugs driven by instinct) until Kerrigan took over the Swarm and started acting out of revenge and hatred.

I don't see where Blizzard is obligated to do anything beyond their traditional WE MUST UNITE TO STAND AGAINST THE BIG BAD, after all their supposed focus is gameplay not storytelling.

Look at Bioware, all their products go on the basis of THE CHOSEN ONE which is equally if not worse than Blizzard's own bread and butter. While DAO/ME/KOTOR are better story tellers than SC2/WC3/WoW/etc they are also created to be a single player story telling experience, and their gameplay is beyond joke status if we compare the two.

The only thing that shifted is Blizzard shunning support for modding while Bioware went from KOTOR/ME ghetto modding to DAO where it's basically Oblivion 0.5 where it depends on modding as an IV for half of it's life support. Though maybe the Galaxy editor will prove me wrong, but only time will tell!

Face it, even comics and crap that has vastly lower replay/reread value forms better stories than these games ever will and that's not even looking at you know books or text heavy stuff.

Xelxiuz wrote: I don't see where Blizzard is obligated to do anything beyond their traditional WE MUST UNITE TO STAND AGAINST THE BIG BAD, after all their supposed focus is gameplay not storytelling.

No, Blizzard's not obligated to do anything.  But they gave us a story, and we can criticize them for being super lazy about it, anyway. 

Alevice wrote: From everything I have read, the damn plot has quite some vibes from RoC. Plus a few asspulls that just lessen the effect motivations and actions had over the events in the first game, just to blizz can have a retarded big bad that was there all along.

This was basically exactly what I thought of the plot when I was playing it.  I enjoyed the game, and I had a great time, but the story just makes me roll my eyes.  I thought it was kindof interesting when it was starting out as Raynor vs the Dominion.  I knew it would transition to something more than that, but I thought it was an interesting beginning.  Then there were the Zeratul missions, and suddenly the hybrids, and oh god this is RoC exactly.  Well okay, I thought, so they're using that same old secret mega villain plot, I guess I can go with it, just as long as they don't un-infest Kerrigan, or something. 

Yeah.

Mr. wrote:

Xelxiuz wrote: I don't see where Blizzard is obligated to do anything beyond their traditional WE MUST UNITE TO STAND AGAINST THE BIG BAD, after all their supposed focus is gameplay not storytelling.

No, Blizzard's not obligated to do anything.  But they gave us a story, and we can criticize them for being super lazy about it, anyway. 

Sure, but it's stating the obvious. After all these years you'd think it's pretty much a cemented fact that Blizzard is incapable of story telling on a higher level.

I mean here I'll give stating the obvious a shot. New Gettysburg cinematic. Desert. Space Platform. Done.

Fuck, you are right, it never dawned on me that the fucking Kerrigan flashback is happening on the damn desert.

That said, was the char's space platform by any chance a re-orbited NG's platform.

I think I noticed that before, in the previews... It's apparently a nightmare so it doesn't have to be accurate but still...

Also, wasn't one of the planet environments (I think the junkyard Deadman's Port) originally named Port Zion? Did Blizzard's policy "experts" think that was offensive to anti-Semites or something?