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Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:18 pm
by Master Jademus Sreg
wibod wrote:Incest doesn't really happen in nature, like at all.
Wrong. Very wrong.

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:40 pm
by Alevice
I guess I might be the only one here that got aroused when watching The Cement Garden.

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:46 pm
by Master Jademus Sreg
We'll see about that.

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:17 pm
by Alevice
The bigger sister (Charlotte Gainsbourg) is far from attarcitve, yet i found her morbidly hot. Then again, she was on Von Trier's Antichrist, so yeah.

edit:

I am rather fond of this particular review on IMDB:
Spoiler
There's an almost heroic honesty to this urbanized, co-ed "Lord of the Flies"-ish love story. A square stone house serves as the isolated island while the jungle is the familiar setting of urban sprawl and other people. Director Andrew Birkin, in adapting Ian McEwan's novel (The Comfort of Strangers) to the screen, doesn't try to shock us. He just ignores our prejudices and lets fall away our preconceptions. What emerges is a sense of liberation from the usual hypocrisy.

The love story is an acting out of sister-brother incest, almost a celebration of it. "Seems natural to me" is what fifteen-year-old Jack (Andrew Robertson) says while in the naked embrace of his older sister Julie (Charlotte Gainsbourg). I could almost buy it, but I know of the "kibbutz effect" in which it was found that unrelated children growing up together virtually never married one another. If sister and brother grow up separately there can be sexual excitement between them, but if they grow up in the same household they tend to find each other sexually boring. Family members usually work out the sexual tension through play at an early age so that by the time they are sexually mature, they are looking elsewhere. That's how the incest taboo works. Its purpose is to channel the sexual drive outward, the better to mix the gene pool. For the individual, incest is not an attractive option socially or economically because it is so much better to increase one's family and influence by joining with someone from another tribe or band. If you marry your sister, you don't gain any brothers. Consequently the average person recoils at the mere suggestion of incest, and it is this mindless, knee jerk reaction that this film attacks.

Consider isolated families in the pre-history. What other reproductive choice would they have? Certainly it is better to reproduce in the hope that the next generation might find partners. This evolutionary wisdom is what is captured here. The sexual drive is seen as stronger than society's ephemeral prejudices, and rightly so since our genes must survive even when the society is stupid and self-destructive in its mores.

Birkin's direction lacks focus in the beginning and the editing seems brilliant and disjointed by turns, but Birkin eschews even the hint of a cliché and ends up with a slightly flawed, but engrossing, strikingly original work of cinematic art.

I'm disappointed that the sound track did not include the seventies Motown tune, "It's a Family Affair."

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:08 pm
by Master Jademus Sreg
I'm obtaining the film and will not allow it to be spoiled for me.

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:24 pm
by Alevice
kk

spoiler alert:

it is about incest


incidentally, the review i posted is less spoilerific than what said above.

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:37 am
by 1N73RC3P70R
i dont think thats the right thread for this site... yet i still wounder how (the f***) can someone do this?? sick ppl. sick

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:03 am
by wibod
Master Jademus Sreg wrote:
wibod wrote:Incest doesn't really happen in nature, like at all.
Wrong. Very wrong.
Did you read the articles you linked? The wikipedia link is referring to what happens in domestic animal breeding which isn't natural, and isolated populations only happen in very few species. Inbreeding only really occurs when there is no other option, pretty much all animals have some form of chemical inhibition against inbreeding.

The situations in those articles are definitely not natural, natural being defined as a healthy population with 2 or more viable genetic pools. Keep in mind that even isolated populations can be healthy and not inbred, it's usually external factors that cause inbreeding to occur.

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:08 am
by Marco
wibod wrote:
wibod wrote:Incest doesn't really happen in nature, like at all.
Inbreeding only really occurs when there is no other option, pretty much all animals have some form of chemical inhibition against inbreeding.
LOGIC ERROR DETECTED

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:27 am
by IskatuMesk
You expect someone that drunk to be logical?

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:12 pm
by Master Jademus Sreg
Your definition of natural is inadequate as it is arbitrary. If it occurs in nature, not directly influenced by human artifacts, it is natural, regardless of the circumstances.
Uranium-238 is naturally occurring, uranium-233 is usually not.
Extinction of dromiceiomimus was natural, extinction of the dodo bird was not.
The incest observed in nature is obviously natural, the incest observed in domestic cattle is probably not.

Unless the incest is forced by human intervention, it is natural. Domestic cats, lions, cheetahs, isolated bird populations and more engage incest naturally, especially predator species and during population bottlenecks.

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:02 pm
by Marco
Master Jademus Sreg wrote: If it occurs in nature, not directly influenced by human artifacts, it is natural, regardless of the circumstances.
Another common misconception.  Humans are born from nature.  We are natural.  Anything we do or create is essentially part of nature, as we are part of nature.  Everything we use to construct everything else is from nature.  Human arrogance assumes that we are not part of nature or that we are on a different level from nature.  Humans may have a large influence over nature, but it is all still naturally occurring.  We don't cease to become separate from nature or separate from the universe because we understand how to manipulate nature in specific ways.  A bird manipulates branches and stems from a tree to make a nest.  It too is considered natural.  What we do might be more complicated, but our brains are the result of nature.  We can't be less than nature, we are nature.

I'm not sure if this qualifies as semantics, but we born from nature cannot become 'not a part of nature' no matter how much we struggle.  'Naturally occuring' is usually the result of many processes, some involving living creatures (like humans, or sometimes without humans).  Everything therefore is, to its core, naturally occurring.

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:11 pm
by Master Jademus Sreg
I am well aware, but the distinction between natural and artificial are necessary for practical purposes, such as when describing what occurs in nature when unmolested by sentient agents. There is no misconception here.

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:50 pm
by Marco
Master Jademus Sreg wrote: I am well aware, but the distinction between natural and artificial are necessary for practical purposes, such as when describing what occurs in nature when unmolested by sentient agents. There is no misconception here.
oh

Re: Mother stalks estranged son on Facebook then has sex with him

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:59 pm
by wibod
Master Jademus Sreg wrote: Your definition of natural is inadequate as it is arbitrary. If it occurs in nature, not directly influenced by human artifacts, it is natural, regardless of the circumstances.
Uranium-238 is naturally occurring, uranium-233 is usually not.
Extinction of dromiceiomimus was natural, extinction of the dodo bird was not.
The incest observed in nature is obviously natural, the incest observed in domestic cattle is probably not.

Unless the incest is forced by human intervention, it is natural. Domestic cats, lions, cheetahs, isolated bird populations and more engage incest naturally, especially predator species and during population bottlenecks.
Incest in isolated populations can be qualified as unnatural due to the fact that isolated populations can still breed without engaging in incest, finches in the Galapagos for example. My definition is fine due to the fact that inbreeding occurs so rarely because it's brought about by external factors such as habitat loss, natural disaster, disease. While the causes may be natural, the result is what matters, the result is a population that's only option is to engage in incest or die out, the drive to carry on the species supersedes the want to not engage in incest. Hence under natural conditions incest would not occur as there would be plenty of suitable mates that are not closely related.
Marco wrote:
wibod wrote:
wibod wrote:Incest doesn't really happen in nature, like at all.
Inbreeding only really occurs when there is no other option, pretty much all animals have some form of chemical inhibition against inbreeding.
LOGIC ERROR DETECTED
/facepalm