Campaign Creations

And so, here's the changes. It's very likely to be the last main changes on W&M for a good while I will be very busy in my personal life for the next months.

1) Elite - Scantolisk (Lv2 Zerg) added.
2) Dragoon now uses a custom model & SC1 sounds.
3) Elite - Atomic Cruiser costs 1000/700/16s (from 900/700/14s)
4) Allied Atomic Crusaders now takes 3x damage from Atomic Crusaders' explosion (from 2x).
5) Atomic Cruiser can no longer be loaded into a transport.
6) Reaver unit now uses the Dark Warp Prism model.
7) Elite - Siege Cruiser now uses the Dark Cruiser model.
8) Reaver now faces opponent before firing.
9) Combo Ultralisks no longer benefit from special minor damage reductions.
10) Trigger improvements when mass buying units.
11) Trigger improvements for merchandise transfers to Warlords.
12) Elite - Pokelots : 10 life & 20 shields (from 20L/15S).

Also, W&M got fused with Super Garden of War for the map "WandM on Super Garden of War". It uses Shamshel's public version (over b.net) of it.

Other notes :

A) Trigger-wise, it's mostly attempts to try to consume less latency and such.
B) Scantolisk got modified from Q's version to have 150 HP (from 175) but 5 ground range (from 4).

EDIT : Forgot to say that Scantolisk only have 10% Cliff movement (from Q's 25%).

You forgot to add the spindle leviathan.

About merchant structures training units on unpathable terrain:

If the structure has the "fly" mover, no footprint (it can have a placement footprint though) and 500 range on its train ability, it should be able to place the trained units as far away as necessary to build them. You might be able to get rid of the mover trigger this way.

You forgot the Death Hellion Fortress, too.

Xenon wrote:About merchant structures training units on unpathable terrain:

If the structure has the "fly" mover, no footprint (it can have a placement footprint though) and 500 range on its train ability, it should be able to place the trained units as far away as necessary to build them. You might be able to get rid of the mover trigger this way.

Hmm, interesting to know. Although I won't rush too much to do it since it only really affect the Sandbox mode, it could be the final fix I was looking for about it.

As a side thing, I would probably require a secondary weapon for Argus (since just the anti-cloak weapon makes it too situational). I did try to make a copy although as usual, it's the beam I had problems with. Basically was just looking on the same beam art but a 7 range with standard damage.

So if you are willing to do it, I just want the secondary weapon on a side map without Argus or its primary Weapon or any side data to minimize conflicts to fuse it into W&M.

IskatuMesk wrote:You forgot to add the spindle leviathan.
You forgot the Death Hellion Fortress, too.

I am afraid I will depend on EVWeb and Q for new Elite units in general.

With personal life stuff starting very soon + Disgaea 4, I won't really have much time to poke on W&M.

I'm sure EVWeb would leap at the chance to make a gigantic hellion.

Ricky_Honejasi wrote:As a side thing, I would probably require a secondary weapon for Argus (since just the anti-cloak weapon makes it too situational). I did try to make a copy although as usual, it's the beam I had problems with. Basically was just looking on the same beam art but a 7 range with standard damage.

So if you are willing to do it, I just want the secondary weapon on a side map without Argus or its primary Weapon or any side data to minimize conflicts to fuse it into W&M.

The weapon is supposed to be situational. I made it to counter mass Sniper etc. which is why the range was initially so long. Attacking other things could just make it a higher priority target, and it's supposed to be a support unit. I added the hold fire specifically to keep it from turning away from a spying target in case targetable cloaked units got too close.

If anything I'd just add a short stun duration to the attack (which might interrupt nukes) or add about 20 base damage to the attack. Otherwise just reduce the cost/tier.

If you really want a second weapon, look for damage effect events in the other duplicated actors, like the impact site, launch site and beam. I forget which has the events.

Edit: Maybe I can think of some other effect a second weapon can have, but it shouldn't be a regular direct-damage weapon.

I am going to mass observers of death.

Ricky, the Reaver model from that patch is more useful than your hilarious idea, the defiler can replace the swarm host because I have a job for the swarm host and there are plenty of other models.

Also if you plan to stop production of the map, hand the progress over to Mesk so he can make it a bit more mancatching.

Xenon wrote: The weapon is supposed to be situational. I made it to counter mass Sniper etc. which is why the range was initially so long. Attacking other things could just make it a higher priority target, and it's supposed to be a support unit. I added the hold fire specifically to keep it from turning away from a spying target in case targetable cloaked units got too close.

If anything I'd just add a short stun duration to the attack (which might interrupt nukes) or add about 20 base damage to the attack. Otherwise just reduce the cost/tier.

If you really want a second weapon, look for damage effect events in the other duplicated actors, like the impact site, launch site and beam. I forget which has the events.

Edit: Maybe I can think of some other effect a second weapon can have, but it shouldn't be a regular direct-damage weapon.

In that sense, I guess I can just buff the range back to 10-12 to make everything simpler. Maybe also add a minor 0.1 sec stun vs cloaked as well.

Vetraeus wrote:Ricky, the Reaver model from that patch is more useful than your hilarious idea

I already explained my reasons. Otherwise the Reaver model would have been in instead of the Dragoon's since it was the first thing I managed to get it in while still not hitting the 10 mb limit. I consider my eyes more important, period.

Vetraeus wrote:Also if you plan to stop production of the map, hand the progress over to Mesk so he can make it a bit more mancatching.

That's a VERY slippery kind of phrase I am tired to death to hear. I am serious. You will not speak or ask of this again. If I decide to hand over the map for any reason, I will do it on my 100% own initiative and not because someone else demands me to.

Ricky_Honejasi wrote:That's a VERY slippery kind of phrase I am tired to death to hear. I am serious. You will not speak or ask of this again. If I decide to hand over the map for any reason, I will do it on my 100% own initiative and not because someone else demands me to.

Should have posted this:

Mucky wrote:Should have posted this

I am not asking anything of the sort of him ... unless Vetraeus wants to push the issue. I really don't want to hear about this again when I already have a solid stance about it and previous talks about it went very wrong about it.

This is why I play this map, and only this map.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b3J7RwBO5c

As much as you probably don't care. I'm speaking for the general enjoyment of playing.

Upgrades should be consolidated into Ground Attack/Armor/Shields and Air Attack/Armor. It can be the difference between life and death as a Warlord and a Merchant because nobody can use off race shit without being at a severe disadvantage until late game assuming there even is an upgrade merchant. Trying to use another races units without their upgrades is far worse than just being without advanced upgrades. It's not fun to run into this situation, top tier combo units force you into it.

Upgrade Merchants have also gone from speeding past warlords because of a chrono boost effect to being way behind them with that overkill +6 minutes every level. 16 vs 7 upgrades, they don't need them to make money and stay competitive with the large amount of upgrades they have at their disposal they can freely overcharge for. This also leads me to another suggestion if its even possible to have default prices for upgrades and units separate. You don't need to stop making units just because you went upgrades.

I've already well establish that all of you merchants suck horribly at being merchants IE observers or spend your time rigging the game against someone. I bitch you aren't making units because you keep making the wrong ones that aren't going to help in a given situation. Mesk and others have already stated that when you are playing as a warlord its not exactly simple to drop what you are doing and type in chat because the observers refuse to be observers, it's hard enough getting mesk to say it over vent. There's also several instances where as a warlord you simply can't afford the price increase over just making it yourself.

Random example:

• I'm out of gas and not harvesting yet have well over 20-30k+ minerals.
• Someone has a large number of Marines or some other mineral only (combo)unit.
• No upgrades for them because I'm not that race or nobody (upg. merch) has them at 6/6 to fight 6/6.
• There is nothing I can do with my pile of minerals even though I've fully upgraded my race.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen someone buy a crap-ton of Marines to try and fend something off only to have failed because of a lack of upgrades. Yes sometimes they are available and never get bought anyways, probably because they can't.

To be perfectly honest if you were for changing upgrades but don't have the time, don't be adverse to just sending me xml files to have it done in a day if you aren't up to doing anything. This is how me and mesk have worked since the start, I'm not out to screw you out of anything or to try and take over.


Air splash. This is getting out of hand when even the lowest level tower completely trivializes defense against any kind of aerial attacks from low to mid tier air units. There is never a time to use Mutalisks or any other similar units to attack/harass anything that has a handful of towers in it, or you wasted so many resources on a death ball to overpower them you left yourself vulnerable to the many fast AA units. Ground units can just waltz right in like nothing is there because that ball of marines isn't getting splashed to death instantly. Replace marines with any lower HP ground unit in the game. Carriers are ridiculously expensive upkeep just because of tower splash.

With this in mind I also think they take way too long to upgrade to higher levels. Make them easier to be made stronger instead of just blowing up any air units that go near them because they have splash. It's also nearly impossible to upgrade any towers in your worker line without halting harvesting for each level. I'm guessing this has something to do with it sharing the same footprint as the regular towers when they get upgraded.

Yeah as I discovered before the tower air splash is something like 2-3x the size of the thor's splash. You may not think of it as much but when they're upgraded and 3-5 are shooting in one spot very quickly... Well, just look at my banshees in that game. 20-30 banshees evaporate to a handful of UNUPGRADED missile turrets.