Campaign Creations

I like it, though somehow this functionality probably won't be edited into the map editor, leaving us mappers lonely and alone.  Lonely and alone!

Mappers are always lonely and alone. It comes with the task of sitting there toiling away on the goddamned ramp and its backfaces for five days, or carving out the side of a small tree with a toothpick for five months. It drives people away, man. Modding is worse, though. Dear God, the shadows...

*snif* It's wonderfull.  It is coming!

lol at map/mod confusion. dota = map != mod

if all the elements that make DoTa what it is (all item/unit/spell + trigger data) were loaded into an executable, and could be launched on any map with the correct region configuration, then it would be a mod, right?

DotA has all the working of a mod, its just contained in a single map. Theres just no reason to make it into a independent mod because there is only 1 map anyone cares about anyway, and there is no good mod support in WC3 from Blizzard.

Isn't that why they made League of Legends?

WB wrote: if all the elements that make DoTa what it is (all item/unit/spell + trigger data) were loaded into an executable, and could be launched on any map with the correct region configuration, then it would be a mod, right?

DotA has all the working of a mod, its just contained in a single map. Theres just no reason to make it into a independent mod because there is only 1 map anyone cares about anyway, and there is no good mod support in WC3 from Blizzard.

Except DoTA couldn't survive without specially made maps, where most mods will work regardless of the map.

WB wrote: if all the elements that make DoTa what it is (all item/unit/spell + trigger data) were loaded into an executable, and could be launched on any map with the correct region configuration, then it would be a mod, right?

Actually, there's plenty of reasons dota would never work as a mod. For starters, trigger dependency. Dota is almost entirely trigger dependent. Virtually every single spell, ect. are all reliant on aspects of triggers you cannot port to a global format. So, no, dota as a mod is not even remotely close to possible. And even if it was, wc3 triggers are extremely performance heavy what with memory leaks and all; a mod with the level of triggering dota has would become unplayable for all but the most powerful of hardware very, very quickly.

Even if you could get dota to work as a mod, you'd still need maps, anyway, because as HKS said, dota is map-dependent.

A mod functions on any melee map without any problems of any kind. Some mods require specific melee maps to bring out their features (special ITAS terrain), but rarely are exclusively dependent on such maps.

I'm surprised with you, WB. You should know this stuff already. Correct region configuration alone makes it map-dependent. Thus, it's not a mod anymore. LoL had a 200mb exe with tons of custom data, sounds, ect. But that wasn't a mod. Why? It needed the map to function. Thus, it's still a map. Just a map with a front-end.

You guys don't see it, SC2 wont operate like SC. There will be no need for these hacking necessities like SC. Things such as MPQs, EXEs, data editing, etc will be obselete. The reason Blizzard now defines mods and maps the same is because they are. I spent all BlizzCon alongside Herc and Dread in argument against that possibility until I realized I'm just being stubborn. Maps ARE mods now in SC2. WarCraft 3, no. StarCraft, no. In StarCraft 2 any data used in one map is not in a map, it's in a separate database for the map, to my understanding, which can be called into another map, which is what enables linked maps to be more logical in SC2 for multiplayer. Consider the maps to be levels. Just plain levels, and your evolving characters, custom units, and so on are all stored in a database for your newly crafted game, and you use actions to call them forward into any of your levels.

Basically.. DotA would be a mod in SC2. All information could be stored into one database and any map linked to that database could call that information to load units. Also, any of those race modding maps in WC3 could be played in any map in SC2 as all that information isn't stored in the map itself. It's called from the maps linked database. Keep in mind, it's not called database, I'm just calling it that.

(This includes triggers if my understanding of the process is correct.)

Blizzard ALWAYS defined WC3 maps like DoTA to be the same thing as mods.

Mods in any sense on an RTS are completely independant of maps, if mods are tied into maps they are making a huge mistake.

It's DotA. Please get it right. "the" is not capitalised unless it's the first word in a title.

lol @ pornogo's pettiness. Dota can be called shitfest for all I care.

Maps ARE mods now in SC2.

Sorry, I had this same argument with dread and he agreed with me eventually that they are different. They always will be different because their context is different. A map is a map environment, a mod is a mod environment. Counter-Strike is a mod, Dota is a map. That's not changing no matter what delusional perspective you try to approach it from or what system you're changing.

Even if you have data in the form of a database, if that data is reliant on aspects of a map, it's still not a mod. It's, as I said, a front-end for the map. This is merely a different system that blurs the definitions but does not outright merge them. So long as there are triggers and systems that depend on regions and locations that typical melee maps do not have, the boundary between mods and maps will remain. Even if people are too narrow to see it.

Though with the data editor, the need for trigger-enhanced abilities will probably drop significantly and make mods more appealing.

Blizzard has never acknowledged that mods exist. Not for Starcraft, not for Diablo 2, not for Warcraft 3. This refusal to acknowledge mods is what has killed them.

Let's expand this concept for a moment and delve into something a little more complex.

In Counter-strike, which is a mod of the half-life engine, there are maps. But there are also mods within the mod, that mod the mod, thus modding a mod. These are introduced through server plugins and mechanics such as that. Alternate damage values, announcements, leaderboards, stats, these are server mods that function across any map. But then there is also maps that change the game independently and are restricted to that map - like those hilarious maps mucky and co were playing. The server mods are powerful, like the data system will be, but there's things they can't do that you still need a custom map for.

Sc2 will still be the same way.

Maps are mods for SC2. Mods are not maps for SC2. There's my thought. Maps can load the information stored for modding purposes into any map, while a mod cannot be played without a map environment to load within.

HKS- Yes, they did define that for WC3, but an error in their way was not understanding or supporting modding environment and sites, those times have changed for SC2. With my infiltrating Blizzard HQ, I was able to discuss with them on more than one occasion about the different from maps and mods in SC1 and how the plan to support the creation of mods (as defined by us) using SC2's utilities, which allow editing of virtually any value and loaded on call within any map.

Isk- A map by our definition is terrain, locations, and triggers. Followed by editing basic values in WarCraft 3. A mod by our definition is the ability to edit hidden values and edit nearly any aspect of a game. Hacking, basically. You mention Counter-Strike, thing is, without a map, Counter-Strike is useless. One could counter stating "well, without a mod, those maps are useless." But you could easily import the data of Counter-Strike into any map not specifically created for CS. It wont be the funnest play time, but it'll work none-the-less, much like StarCraft 2's function of creating said "mod" / database of edited values, and loading them into any map.

I think the thing you're missing that makes you state there will forever be a barrier is triggers. However, with SC2, if things go as last mentioned to me, triggers can be stored values and called as well, making any map stored data not unique to that map but instead usable on all maps. You delve into the complexity of servers, but with Battle.net we're limited to what we're given: The ability to store and call virtually any data seen within any map designed to be used with the established database/"mod" (even including terrain states so it doesn't reset when the map is reloaded).

I lost myself.

You can load triggers globally in wc3, too (providing you're amazing at jass and can hack apart the mess that is the various .j files). That doesn't mean it's going to work much less work well, in an entirely different environment.

You mention Counter-Strike, thing is, without a map, Counter-Strike is useless. One could counter stating "well, without a mod, those maps are useless." But you could easily import the data of Counter-Strike into any map not specifically created for CS. It wont be the funnest play time, but it'll work none-the-less

You... just... reinforced what I said? Counter-strike without a map is like a game without a map. Of course it's going to be useless? You are reinforcing what I said by stating the maps can be used elsewhere, because yes they can. They're not limited to CS. Hell, we put Deathmatch maps into CS: Source. We're porting maps from one mod to another. An entirely and ludicrously more complex and annoying process than in SC or wc3, but doable. The maps are not bound to mods, and likewise, the mods are not bound to maps.

But I was referring to CS and its maps on a stand-alone scale. Within CS there are further modifications provided by server plugins and software users run while hosting. These apply to any map. They're mods.

You lost me, too.

Providing their "mod loader" they've only off-handedly mentioned handles stuff like the main menus and animations and intro CGI and everything, I do think that stuff like mpqdraft will be phased out. But there will always be a demand for user-made tools. Such as a particle editor; I'm... um... doing something right now, and the particle editor involved is very limited and very simple, but with that particle editor I have made some incredibly awesome shit. Shit you just can't make in 3ds max or maya with plugin limitations and stuff games don't support from that software, at least not without an extremely high level of skill in both the game and the 3d app.

Tangent to news post: http://www.campaigncreations.org/forum/http://www.campaigncreations.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=33783#p33783