Campaign Creations

I didn't hear anything about the Overmind going after some Xel`Naga site. If that's a part of the novels or something I have missed then I don't know about that.

They didn’t use the powers of their ships for combat and destruction; in fact, it was against their moral code as explorers to do so (a direct result of the Kalath Intercession incident with the colossi). In order for the motherships to become battle-worthy with a full crew ready to kill would take months, if not years, of training. And considering that the events from the beginning of the Invasion of Aiur to the evacuation all transpired in less than a year, it’s, imo, sensible that the motherships didn’t make it in time.

One would assume that, if contacted, they would try to save their race from destruction regardless of their skills and personal content. I don't imagine the Protoss are so lethargic to the point that they don't shed tears to billions of their brothers dying en masse. I also do not possess any kind of timeline for the invasion... if it was less than a year but more than a few days it seems reasonable that a race who can create wormholes could get their most potent vessels across a multitude of systems within a very short time. Unless we're suddenly going to apply magical restrictions to such technology just for the benefit of attempting to justify the Protoss not using their most potent weaponry - the Colossi and the Mothership both - in which case that is just flat out silly and dumb and makes no sense. Alternate concepts could be made that sound far more logical and make a lot more sense.

/e As for the planets nearby that didn't do anything... again, I didn't hear anything about that in the campaigns. Sounds like more retconny stuff to me. And really weird stuff at that. I mean, that doesn't even make any sense.

But why call it a Mothership or even have the relations to that of a mother ship, why not allow it to be something unique and an almost "ultra" looking ship designed FOR combat.

Blizzard is too fascinated with ANCIENT WEAPONS OF INCREDIBLE POWER. I mean, the very instant I heard Zeratul say "The artifacts are the key, the key to the end of all things!" I burst out loud laughing for a full five minutes. I mean, seriously.

Personally, I would have had the Mothership be a new creation, of which only a handful exist. A psionic warfare vessel. And it wouldn't be called the Mothership, but it would serve a similar purpose.

Lavarinth wrote: I have to agree, ultimately with Isk.

They had any option to their disposal, as creators of the original lore and now the sequel- So why opt to retcon when they can simply work around? And to add to this- I understand it's a heavy-duty-do-it-all ship.. But why call it a Mothership or even have the relations to that of a mother ship, why not allow it to be something unique and an almost "ultra" looking ship designed FOR combat.

Wait, what do you think they are retconning? I'm getting a little confused with all the information flying around.

As for the design, it wasn't intended to be used for combat, but rather to have several powers available to the scientists to help make information gathering and preservation easier. Notice that all of its current abliities are defensive or borderline defensive abilites. Say a species they are observing becomes aware of the protoss presence and decides to retaliate with their own forces, attacking the mothership and any other surrounding protoss. The cloaking field would do well to protect the mothership's allies around her, minimizing the damage done to protoss as well as the amount that would need to be done to pacify the enemy. Vortex doesn't do any damage to the enemy, it just temporarily removes them from the battlefield. The mothership could easily trap the enemy forces in a vortex and then relocate, avoiding conflict. Time Rift is similar in that regard in that it is used to slow down and pacify enemy fire, not increase protoss fire. And Wormhole Transit, more often than not, would be practically used to allow the mothership to escape or teleport to where it needs to defend, not attack. The mothership was designed with a similar role to the queen in mind in that it defends and makes things around the other forces easier, not to attack and create total destruction.

IskatuMesk wrote: I didn't hear anything about the Overmind going after some Xel`Naga site. If that's a part of the novels or something I have missed then I don't know about that.

That was actually revealed to the player during the briefing of the last mission in the first zerg campaign. The Overmind stated that it wanted to “assimilate the protoss into the Swarm, thus making them ‘perfect,’” but, in retrospect, that is essentially the same thing as a hybrid and, in fact, pretty much the way the xel’naga intended it to be created.

IskatuMesk wrote:

They didn’t use the powers of their ships for combat and destruction; in fact, it was against their moral code as explorers to do so (a direct result of the Kalath Intercession incident with the colossi). In order for the motherships to become battle-worthy with a full crew ready to kill would take months, if not years, of training. And considering that the events from the beginning of the Invasion of Aiur to the evacuation all transpired in less than a year, it’s, imo, sensible that the motherships didn’t make it in time.

One would assume that, if contacted, they would try to save their race from destruction regardless of their skills and personal content. I don't imagine the Protoss are so lethargic to the point that they don't shed tears to billions of their brothers dying en masse. I also do not possess any kind of timeline for the invasion... if it was less than a year but more than a few days it seems reasonable that a race who can create wormholes could get their most potent vessels across a multitude of systems within a very short time. Unless we're suddenly going to apply magical restrictions to such technology just for the benefit of attempting to justify the Protoss not using their most potent weaponry - the Colossi and the Mothership both - in which case that is just flat out silly and dumb and makes no sense. Alternate concepts could be made that sound far more logical and make a lot more sense.

/e As for the planets nearby that didn't do anything... again, I didn't hear anything about that in the campaigns. Sounds like more retconny stuff to me. And really weird stuff at that. I mean, that doesn't even make any sense.

Think about it this way. Say the country your ancestors came from was being invaded by another country (for this example, we will use China invading Russia). If you have Russian ancestors, yet you are born and raised in Canada, do you want to got help Russia? The majority of my heritage is from Germany and I certainly know I wouldn’t give a shit if Germany got invaded by Israel (for whatever reason). I mean, sure, the US is gonna intervene because everybodies’ business is our business these days, but I don’t want to help them out. Let them do their own thing. I have never known Germany as my home and, thus, don’t really care about them. As for the other protoss planets, it’s the same thing as what’s going on in Darfur. Sure, what’s going on there is horrible and tragic, but are we gonna go help in full force? No. Why? Because that isn’t our country and our people dying.

IskatuMesk wrote:

But why call it a Mothership or even have the relations to that of a mother ship, why not allow it to be something unique and an almost "ultra" looking ship designed FOR combat.

Blizzard is too fascinated with ANCIENT WEAPONS OF INCREDIBLE POWER. I mean, the very instant I heard Zeratul say "The artifacts are the key, the key to the end of all things!" I burst out loud laughing for a full five minutes. I mean, seriously.

Personally, I would have had the Mothership be a new creation, of which only a handful exist. A psionic warfare vessel. And it wouldn't be called the Mothership, but it would serve a similar purpose.

That is a good point. Blizzard has put an over-emphasis on the protoss and their old technology. But since they have gone all the way back to the beginning with protoss history, the only way they can go farther is with crazy xel’naga artifacts. It seems like they got a little too much WarCraft lore in their system, imo. WarCraft is all about the “ages” and things that have been around forever are reawakening, blah blah blah. Now they are trying to mix the concepts of “modern threat” with “age-old threat” by having the xel’naga artifacts and Duran’s modern hybrid. It is silly at first glance and nothing like the plot of the first game, but I’m curious to see if they are capable of making it work out well.

That was actually revealed to the player during the briefing of the last mission in the first zerg campaign. The Overmind stated that it wanted to “assimilate the protoss into the Swarm, thus making them ‘perfect,’” but, in retrospect, that is essentially the same thing as a hybrid and, in fact, pretty much the way the xel’naga intended it to be created.

Okay, I don't understand this reasoning at all. I'm really not sure how you are supposed to extrapolate "assimilate the protoss" into "pillage and rape a Xel`Naga place". Maybe that's how the Xel`Naga imagined it and all that but how am I the player supposed to know that the Overmind really wants a Xel`Naga facility?

On the planets >

Yes, but a country invading Russia is very, VERY different from an invasive species hellbent on obliterating your entire race. A tremendous alien swarm appearing inside your back yard and laying waste to everything in their path is considerably more terrifying and inspiring than the political webworks of modern-day military engagements and treaties. If the Protoss are willing to ally with Terrans of all things, they would probably be also willing to bear dealing with their distant brothers to avoid getting curbstomped after the homeworld gets thrashed. Which I guess they didn't because now they're all dead. Retards.

That really isn't an issue of retconning and is outside the scope of my gripes but if that's actually canon then I really can't understand why the Protoss are so dumb.

That is a good point. Blizzard has put an over-emphasis on the protoss and their old technology. But since they have gone all the way back to the beginning with protoss history, the only way they can go farther is with crazy xel’naga artifacts.

I have a lot of old stuff in TOA, but it's the way that it's portrayed that makes the difference. From what we've seen in SC2: Wings of Liberty, there is;

Zeratul appearing, giving the ultra-cliche PROPHECY and OMEN. He then entrusts Raynor, the unlikely hero with a ragtag band of bandits with the QUEST to SAVE US FROM ULTIMATE DESTRUCTION.

Now, they might pull out something amazing and clever with this, but that dialogue alone is just so ridiculously cliche that it's unbearable.

/e

I also don't really like how Raynor runs around slaughtering protoss to get the artifacts in the first place. I don't know, that just comes off as weird and counter-productive.

IskatuMesk wrote:

That was actually revealed to the player during the briefing of the last mission in the first zerg campaign. The Overmind stated that it wanted to “assimilate the protoss into the Swarm, thus making them ‘perfect,’” but, in retrospect, that is essentially the same thing as a hybrid and, in fact, pretty much the way the xel’naga intended it to be created.

Okay, I don't understand this reasoning at all. I'm really not sure how you are supposed to extrapolate "assimilate the protoss" into "pillage and rape a Xel`Naga place". Maybe that's how the Xel`Naga imagined it and all that but how am I the player supposed to know that the Overmind really wants a Xel`Naga facility?

On the planets >

Yes, but a country invading Russia is very, VERY different from an invasive species hellbent on obliterating your entire race. A tremendous alien swarm appearing inside your back yard and laying waste to everything in their path is considerably more terrifying and inspiring than the political webworks of modern-day military engagements and treaties. If the Protoss are willing to ally with Terrans of all things, they would probably be also willing to bear dealing with their distant brothers to avoid getting curbstomped after the homeworld gets thrashed. Which I guess they didn't because now they're all dead. Retards.

That really isn't an issue of retconning and is outside the scope of my gripes but if that's actually canon then I really can't understand why the Protoss are so dumb.

Idk. I guess it's just an opinion thing, as I don't have any actual hard evidence to support my claims. Perhaps it will be addressed later, but you're right that it is an iffy topic as to why things didn't transpire differently. The unit lore of the mothership is also about 2 years old and Blizzard isn't exactly active in their site updates. Maybe they will end up making it somthing more like how you would do it. It would be far more effective if they got rid of the "this unit has been around for ages but only now is it being used for combat" thing. The colossus is a bit more sound in their backstory for it, but not by much. Why they couldn't just keep the colossus on Aiur in case something like the invasion occurred, I don't know. I do know, however, that simply warping it from where they abandonned it was not something they were capable of doing at the time. It was abandonned afterall.

IskatuMesk wrote:

That is a good point. Blizzard has put an over-emphasis on the protoss and their old technology. But since they have gone all the way back to the beginning with protoss history, the only way they can go farther is with crazy xel’naga artifacts.

I have a lot of old stuff in TOA, but it's the way that it's portrayed that makes the difference. From what we've seen in SC2: Wings of Liberty, there is;

Zeratul appearing, giving the ultra-cliche PROPHECY and OMEN. He then entrusts Raynor, the unlikely hero with a ragtag band of bandits with the QUEST to SAVE US FROM ULTIMATE DESTRUCTION.

Now, they might pull out something amazing and clever with this, but that dialogue alone is just so ridiculously cliche that it's unbearable.

/e

I also don't really like how Raynor runs around slaughtering protoss to get the artifacts in the first place. I don't know, that just comes off as weird and counter-productive.

For the Zeratul and Raynor speech, agreed. It was a very cliche occurence and I hope they rewrite that encounter. It probably would have sounded a lot better if they gave a bit more context after the meeting as it seems a bit spontaneous, but Blizzard is Blizzard and wants to leave lots of mysteries.

As for Raynor attacking protoss, I think he isn't trying to help Zeratul because he has his own problems to deal with, which also happens to include the artifacts. Note, though, that not all protoss are friends. The third installment, Legacy of the Void, is gonna be about Zeratul rounding up a bunch of different warring protoss factions, helping some and, in turn, pissing off others. I start to get the impression that the protoss hate each other even more than the terrans do.

I figured as much about the Protoss tribes.. but... I don't know. It's just weird. Especially seeing as the Protoss have anti-matter weapons... ever since I discovered how ludicrous anti-matter is I've really just been shocked that the Terrans can even fight the protoss and how much of a power difference there is between them. I mean, a Scout in atmosphere would probably blow up a squadron of battlecruisers in just a couple of shots.

Starcraft is really just all kinds of wtf. 'Tis why I like Diablo more.

IskatuMesk wrote: I figured as much about the Protoss tribes.. but... I don't know. It's just weird. Especially seeing as the Protoss have anti-matter weapons... ever since I discovered how ludicrous anti-matter is I've really just been shocked that the Terrans can even fight the protoss and how much of a power difference there is between them. I mean, a Scout in atmosphere would probably blow up a squadron of battlecruisers in just a couple of shots.

Starcraft is really just all kinds of wtf. 'Tis why I like Diablo more.

Yeah, Blizzard pretty much just picked weapon names for whatever sounded cool and sci-fi at the time. I don't think they put as much thought into the unit lore back then as they are trying to now, but w/e. The little stuff like that doesn't bother me that much. WarCraft has serious things wrong with its universe.

I always liked Diablo, but I never really got into the story as much as I did for other games. It's got a great story, don't get me wrong, it's just that the linear story of the game seems like that's all there really is to know. Everything revolves around Diablo and his brothers. I've only read the first 100 pages of one the their books and found it hard to stick with because it didn't have Diablo in it. It's weird. I don't like how the scope of the universe is so small, yet at the same time I can't follow it if it tries to get any bigger..... Oh well. If Diablo 3 branches out a bit more, maybe I'll be able to give the book another chance or even pick up some of the other ones.

The big problem with Blizzard's universes is when they expand them. They don't know how to expand the universe while preventing it from becoming a convulted mess. Look at Warcraft, and now what Starcraft is becoming. Warcraft was amazing when it was just orcs and humans. Then they just tacked on a bunch of weird shit and now... well, it's a mess.

Diablo is great, even though it's fairly simple, because it's linear and leaves a lot to the user to imagine. It hasn't yet succumbed to the same problems the other two Blizzard universes have. Though I fear that with Diablo 3 that will change.

I am not really a fan of any of the Blizzard novels that I have read/semi-read, but I haven't read that many. Most of them sound very silly and destroy the lore even further than the new games do.

I don't really think Diablo is that more convincing in the realistic aspect.... I mean, I haven't been able to read a Diablo book, and hardly know the lore really, but that's because they don't sell it here, and I'm not that willing to get a cheap scan.

WTF, Diablo could pull off his best moves all the time, but instead, he uses these cheap moves that are easily dodged and lets a "mortal" kick his ass using a "Magic" sword and a few unrealistic skillz (I swear, I wouldn't be able to dodge shit better if someone shouted in my ear...) but that's just my opinion.
I do admit, though, that Diablo does have a wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more realistic sense to it. Except for the "hero" being different every time with no effect to anything except some of the dialogs. But they can probably change that in D3, i hope. (also the ending cinematic changes with each char in D1, but it's more or less the same, but in the end the "Warrior" becomes Diablo aka : "The Wanderer")
I also hope they create more randomness to the quests such as in Diablo 1 but with more quests, and in turn, more randomness.(Mostly because Diablo II's quests/story is pissing me off, it's the same thing over, and over, and over, and over, and over.....)

As for SC : yes, the Protoss are short sighted. But I agree they should've just kept the Colossi somewhere safe (as to not be taken over by any other Protoss) and when done with the motherships (as you stated :  "The motherships, after the end of the Age, were stationed at the borders of protoss space as a statement of how far they have reached." ) the Protoss didn't have to be such show-offs, tch, would've saved their asses if they weren't.

Okay.

What the fuck are you talking about? SUPER HELL DEMONS ARE REALISTIC

IskatuMesk wrote: Okay.

*comes to a realization that he was talking a load of shit*

IskatuMesk wrote: I figured as much about the Protoss tribes.. but... I don't know. It's just weird. Especially seeing as the Protoss have anti-matter weapons... ever since I discovered how ludicrous anti-matter is I've really just been shocked that the Terrans can even fight the protoss and how much of a power difference there is between them. I mean, a Scout in atmosphere would probably blow up a squadron of battlecruisers in just a couple of shots.

Yeah, 1/2 pound antimatter = 1 nuclear bomb, and not Starcraft's mini-nukes either. However, for all the energy you get out of it, you have to put in even more to produce it due to inefficiency. I've considered that shots only contain a microscopic amount of the stuff, which is generated or gated in as needed; otherwise blowing up a goon would vaporize the map. Even trying to contain a large amount of antimatter is hazardous; the enemy could develop an EMP weapon to disrupt the containment field, causing catastrophic failure.

Still, in theory a goon should be able to charge up a shot strong enough to demolish a base, even if it takes hours...

I didn't read all that ^ (will read later). But I want to point out that at the time of the fall of Aiur, the Conclave was in charge, and they were so goddamn prideful they didn't want to the Dark Templar or the terrans to help. To me it makes perfect sense that they would not call back their motherships or anything else for that matter. And once again, as was stated on the last page, Aiur was destroyed very rapidly, less than a year, perhaps just a month. The entire power structure of the protoss was then destroyed by the executor and Tassadar. The invasion of Aiur was a shocking attack that completely disrupted the protoss and was a massive surprise since they never thought or considered it would be possible.

The conclave WERE that stupid, the opening missions of the Protoss campaign explain that part quite well, so it makes sense that they would not use all their technology because they believed so strongly that they didn't have to. The entirety of the Protoss campaign in Brood War is right after Starcraft 1, the protoss are reeling  from the attack and evacuating, to the homeworld of the Dark Templar of all places.

Xenon wrote:

IskatuMesk wrote: I figured as much about the Protoss tribes.. but... I don't know. It's just weird. Especially seeing as the Protoss have anti-matter weapons... ever since I discovered how ludicrous anti-matter is I've really just been shocked that the Terrans can even fight the protoss and how much of a power difference there is between them. I mean, a Scout in atmosphere would probably blow up a squadron of battlecruisers in just a couple of shots.

Yeah, 1/2 pound antimatter = 1 nuclear bomb, and not Starcraft's mini-nukes either. However, for all the energy you get out of it, you have to put in even more to produce it due to inefficiency. I've considered that shots only contain a microscopic amount of the stuff, which is generated or gated in as needed; otherwise blowing up a goon would vaporize the map. Even trying to contain a large amount of antimatter is hazardous; the enemy could develop an EMP weapon to disrupt the containment field, causing catastrophic failure.

Still, in theory a goon should be able to charge up a shot strong enough to demolish a base, even if it takes hours...

Presumably a race that can output the power to demolish entire planets from orbit with Motherships, an ancient technology, would have the power to also create anti-matter relatively easily. Also, not to mention artificial wormhole creation. I mean, that sums up Protoss tech nicely right there.

WB> I figured that much, but even the most arrogant people have to succumb eventually to fear and despair. Anyways, there's also the ripple effect that would happen afterwards. Protoss would begin to question why their leaders didn't do this or that or bring these peoples/weapons into action. The reeling would have been significantly more painful than just an outright defeat. I would hope that the sc2 campaign reflects on this.

@Iskatu, well, they never had a chance I would think because it seemed to have all happened to fast and they were destroyed by Tassadar. But, its not like there is no change, eventually Aldaris DOES relent and basically apologizes for being a douche. At that point it is the final battle. The protoss fleets were basically decimated, along with all levels of their government, which is reflected in Brood War, they are on the run at that point.

Between that and SC2, theyve had time to restablish contact with their scattered forces, the motherships I suppose would have been called back at this point, and Colossi reactivated.