Campaign Creations

IskatuMesk wrote: Reavers are one of the most pivotal units in the Protoss arsenal. Especially in PvP, next to Arbiters. Good reaver control makes or breaks a protoss player.

The reaver is special because it's High Risk High Reward. It requires a considerable amount of skill to handle the reaver/shuttle combo and of course, as mucky said, you have the scarab dud problem which is because they are ground units.

Another unit that falls into high risk high reward is the Spider Mine. But the Reaver is the best example of providing strategic and tactical depth using synergy (Shuttle) and giving the player considerable power (A reaver can decimate a player's economy in a single hit) but with a considerable risk involved (Yes, the reaver is slow, that's the entire point hur hurr derp).

The colossus is more effective, yes. That's why it's a terrible unit. It's too effective. It takes no skill to use. Placing your reaver, shooting at the right target from the right angle, avoiding letting your shuttle get raped, it's all part of the game. The colossus, well, you just walk up and watch it kill everything. It's a boring unit to watch and to use. It's like, giving your batter too much sugar ruins the flavor. The Colossus is too powerful and because it replaces the Reaver's role, which was a High Risk High Reward unit, you are taking something away from the protoss gameplay and replacing it with something unintuitive and very stale. Most people who see the Colossus will go "Oh hey, a giant robot!" and give no further thought to it because there is nothing impressive about the gameplay elements it brings to the table.

In order to achieve that amazing spectator sport that Blizzard wants so badly, they need units like the Reaver. It's not about nostalgia; I couldn't care less if the keep the reaver in its current incarnation or not. I didn't cry when they axed the wraith or even my beloved devourer and defiler. But I do care about what the new units do to the metagame and to the overall prose of the races. And from my eyes, the Colossus adds nothing but takes away a lot.

So, therefore, your point is, Mesk, Starcraft was more fun because there were some more strategic units?  I know I've read your articles before, and I know that that simple point and shoot units are boring.  Do you have any example of units that require skill to use, besides the Reaver in SC (any game will do)?

IMO, a good example for a unit demanding some skill is, and you'll surely hate me for it, the Soviet Terror Drone in Red Alert 3.  Of course, EA made a ridiculous job with it, but, if you look from a different angle, you see that, for medium-skilled players, the Drone is an effective harassment unit, that can change the tide of the battle.  You just needed to path effectively the Drone in order to take down an Ore Collector in early game.  Unfortunately, EA swarmed bases so much with their fucking Repair Drones that it, unexpectedly, made the Drone an useless unit, a decoration.

WB wrote:

IskatuMesk wrote: I'm actually kind of liking the phoenix/warp ray combo. Gravity lift or whatever could prove to be very hilarious if used right. Overload seems pretty OP at the moment, too, especially against poor zerg who lack scourge to immediately deal with air threats.

Scouts were amazing in the hands of my retarded AI that could scout rush you before you even had an armory up with like 20 scouts.

Whats overload? I don't think the phoenix has that anymore. Zerg don't have scourge anymore, but queens can shoo away most units early game, then you have hydra/corrupter as your mainstay Anti air, but phoenix if done quick establish complete air dominance for protoss in PvZ since they move so goddamn fast. Its just the corsair with a different name, different ability.

Perhaps Negi, you dont see the nuance because you havent played it?

If they don't have overload anymore then that's news to me. It was an AoE ability that hit every nearby enemy air unit. Maybe it got replaced with the gravity lift.

They don't have the basic AoE like the corsair does, and I am unsure if you can perform move attacks with them like you can the corsair, but gravity will give them an edge against units like the queen since they can just lift them up and pick them off. Especially without the scourge, protoss air is a lot more scary looking.

The thing about corruptors is they are taking the place of the Devourer. The Devourer can really rape corsairs, especially since its slow is aoe, but zerg never get devourers because they are so high in the tech tree and by the time they become available the game has shifted back into ground combat. I am of course speaking strictly of high level gameplay, which we haven't seen in Starcraft 2 yet, but somehow I don't expect the corruptor to see a lot of use in sc2 as it is, especially since the Phoenix is available much sooner. I expect the counter to be hydras as you said.

Do you have any example of units that require skill to use, besides the Reaver in SC (any game will do)?

The vulture is a good example. Proper mine placement should be a part of every Terran's work day, but the vulture is capable of indefinitely kiting zerglings and bouncing around worker lines by firing without ever stopping in the right hands. I can semi-perform this kind of micro but my apm isn't high enough to really take advantage of it.

Another unit would be the Mutalisk, but the Mutalisk is more of an apm sink. You've probably heard of the mutalisk in sc2 where you can't bunch them up into a tight little ball and bounce back and forth so easily. In the first Starcraft, you take advantage of the air pathing system by selecting a group of mutalisks and then a larva or an overlord across the map, and they will cluster up allowing you to dance back and forth over cliffs and pick off workers, marines, or whatever.

But I personally don't believe that should be in starcraft 2. I think unit micro should be based more on the units, synergies, and their strengths and weaknesses rather than abusing engine mechanics. Unfortunately Blizzard doesn't think that way and they've been breaking their game engine to bring mutalisk clustering back into sc2.

Why do you say breaking their engine? I haven't heard of attempts to reintroduce muta clustering.

Also, you can get corruptors when you get mutas. Same tech level, so you can get corruptors when toss get scouts. Also, spore colonies are way better now since they can pick themselves up and reposition themselves.

And yea, it seems anti-grab replaced overload. I can tell you that a phoenix that is anti-graving something cant also attack, so early game vs that queen, you'd need at least 2 phoenix to do anything other than poke them with a stick.

<3 Vultures.

I'm just quoting browder when I talk about the mutas. He's said it quite a few times by now.

I thought corruptors were tier 3. They seem a bit strong for tier 2 since they counter heavy air really easily.

IskatuMesk wrote: they axed the wraith or even my beloved devourer and defiler.

[imgwh 521x621]http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7710/noooo1.jpg[/imgwh]

Negi wrote:
Let's see:
Dragoon - no
Reaver - no
Shuttle - no
Observer - yes
Scout - no
Carrier - yes
Arbiter - no
Corsair - no

That is, all protoss technology, save the carrier and observer, is gone. 

well, I guess that can be explained by the invasion of aiur wiping out the protoss factories and such on the planet that were responsible for building such crafts.

chris wrote:

Negi wrote:
Let's see:
Dragoon - no
Reaver - no
Shuttle - no
Observer - yes
Scout - no
Carrier - yes
Arbiter - no
Corsair - no

That is, all protoss technology, save the carrier and observer, is gone. 

well, I guess that can be explained by the invasion of aiur wiping out the protoss factories and such on the planet that were responsible for building such crafts.

It depends on the unit for the explanation. For the dragoon, every dragoon that was created was brought to a shrine on Aiur and I think they added some special material that could only be found there; seems like more of a religious reason. The reaver doesn't have much of a reason to be removed from the mainstream protoss military other than that they (the protoss people) seem to find the colossi much more suiting because they are the only machine created in protoss history whose sole purpose was to kill. Blizzard just seems to find it uneccessaey to have 2 ground siege units for the protoss. Warp prism is just seen as more efficient transport technology and is multi-purpose. Arbiters don't exist anymore because they were ships designated for judicators, and since the Conclave doesn't exist anymore (and thus no more judicators) they just sort of phased out. As of yet, there isn't really any reason as to why the scout and corsair are gone. The phoenix seems nearly as equally capable as them both. You never know. 

Wasn't the Corsair a Dark Templar ship? I distinctly remember Zeratul saying "Our corsairs..."

They should be everywhere in the campaign if that's the case.

IskatuMesk wrote: Wasn't the Corsair a Dark Templar ship? I distinctly remember Zeratul saying "Our corsairs..."

They should be everywhere in the campaign if that's the case.

True, they were. My theory of it, though, its that since Artanis seems to be trying so hard to integrate the Dark Templar back into mainstream, the DTs don't have anything that is just theirs anymore. If they are involved with any machinery, it's a collaborative effort like the stalker or void ray. However, I would be shocked if there aren't a TON of corsairs when the player is against Dark Templar factions in the campaign like the Tal'darim. Some protoss are extremely opposed to the idea of the two templar mixing.

thebrowncloud wrote:

IskatuMesk wrote: Wasn't the Corsair a Dark Templar ship? I distinctly remember Zeratul saying "Our corsairs..."

They should be everywhere in the campaign if that's the case.

True, they were. My theory of it, though, its that since Artanis seems to be trying so hard to integrate the Dark Templar back into mainstream, the DTs don't have anything that is just theirs anymore. If they are involved with any machinery, it's a collaborative effort like the stalker or void ray. However, I would be shocked if there aren't a TON of corsairs when the player is against Dark Templar factions in the campaign like the Tal'darim. Some protoss are extremely opposed to the idea of the two templar mixing.

We can't also forget this:  http://starcraft2.com/features/protoss/phoenix.xml

It mentions "The phoenix is a swift and deadly spacecraft that is rapidly replacing the older scouts and corsairs in the role of fighter for the Protoss.".  Just like an old car, Protoss (damn bastards) felt the Corsair isn't fit for the new era.  I'll really miss the Disruption Web, that was useful against anti-air and artillery. 

That could be another reason. In retrospect, all of the new units for every race are technically just a "new car." The lore reasons are just there to sugar-coat it and make it believable in the universe. The actual reason is because, without the units being changed, SC2 would really just be 3D SC1.5.

Pretty much.  Remember that the Protoss were still pumping out the old school units on Shakuras, even the Arbiters except for one mission.

Well quite honestly, how can they have immortals if they are goons that are slowly disappearing, as a normal unit!? Maybe as a special unit that is given in CERTAIN levels. But to use it as a unit that will take place in everything makes no sense. If I have 300 of the most precious swords in the world, do I go and chop people up with them!? Hell No! I would polish them everyday and make them stronger so that when I do need to use them, they are unmatched. I think that how the Protoss find so many things sacred and would die to protect them, these are thrown into battle. We all know that the Protoss aren't that dum... BLIZZARD! STOP THINKING LIKE A TERRAN!

Just my honest opinion...

DrumsofWar wrote: Pretty much.  Remember that the Protoss were still pumping out the old school units on Shakuras, even the Arbiters except for one mission.

Wait...... what?

Death_Wing wrote: Well quite honestly, how can they have immortals if they are goons that are slowly disappearing, as a normal unit!? Maybe as a special unit that is given in CERTAIN levels. But to use it as a unit that will take place in everything makes no sense. If I have 300 of the most precious swords in the world, do I go and chop people up with them!? Hell No! I would polish them everyday and make them stronger so that when I do need to use them, they are unmatched. I think that how the Protoss find so many things sacred and would die to protect them, these are thrown into battle. We all know that the Protoss aren't that dum... BLIZZARD! STOP THINKING LIKE A TERRAN!

Just my honest opinion...

That's not necessarily true. The dragoons weren't weapons, they were warriors. Think about it like the abandonment of bushido in Japan. After a while, people stopped following bushido because times were changing. They didn't give the people that were still samurai special treatment. They just did what they do and times continued to change.

Death_Wing wrote: Well quite honestly, how can they have immortals if they are goons that are slowly disappearing, as a normal unit!? Maybe as a special unit that is given in CERTAIN levels. But to use it as a unit that will take place in everything makes no sense. If I have 300 of the most precious swords in the world, do I go and chop people up with them!? Hell No! I would polish them everyday and make them stronger so that when I do need to use them, they are unmatched. I think that how the Protoss find so many things sacred and would die to protect them, these are thrown into battle. We all know that the Protoss aren't that dum... BLIZZARD! STOP THINKING LIKE A TERRAN!

Just my honest opinion...

I thought Immortals WERE upgraded Dragoons.

Thats exactly what he said, Immortals are refitted Dragoons but the shrine where the Dragoons were created was on Auir much like everything else that doesn't exist anymore.