IskatuMesk SC2 Beta Coverage

[Xenon]

Ubisoft? How much thought went into the decision to make the DRM that kicks the player out of a single-player game at any temporary loss of internet connection (or the failure of the DRM servers)?

"Yeah, we need to nerf this unit, but the punch-the-consumer-in-the-face system is working perfectly!"

[IskatuMesk]

Sorry bro, and no offense, but having worked in the industry doesn't really give you any more weight than anyone else. I've worked on game design and mods and balance and all that jazz for over 10 years. But these are still just my opinions, so treat them as such. I am curious what position you worked as? There's someone who claims to be a Relic balance designer on TL but he's totally clueless when it comes to anything about games.

Ubisoft is a terrible company. It has to be said. They weren't always terrible, but they are now. I can't really think of many good companies at all besides some console-oriented ones. Black isle was good, but that magic is totally gone. Blizzard is all about business now. But I loved Conquest: Frontier Wars and I wish companies like Ubisoft would pull themselves out of their ditches and move back into making quality games.

Through i agree with some of what Mesk is saying, i also don't agree to burn in flame sc2. and i don't care who is coming from another game or whatever.

Then you're not getting the full picture my friend. Browder is a C&C designer, and while I understand some people actually like those games, those people also acknowledge the colossal and fundamental flaws that inhibit these games from ever going anywhere past "lol teehee" and into something memorable.

SC2 will get big because Blizzard is pushing it go big as hard as they can. They're keeping everything tournament related locked down nice and tight in Battle.net 2.0, they're removing LAN to cockblock anyone else, they're introducing micro transactions, and they're going to extend production over 2 expansions.

It's perfectly true that the game will not be balanced nor perfect upon release, which is what I've also been saying. What I've been saying is that the game needs a massive overhaul to get onto that path in the first place. It isn't just my opinion of that, either, but the opinions of many professional gamers, coaches of progaming teams, and other commentators. SC2 is boring and stale already and beta isn't even halfway done yet. A lot of the high-end players that I've talked to have specifically expressed boredom with the game.

If you eliminate balance from the factors of the equation, the enjoyment of gameplay comes exclusively from the unit design. If the units are not fun to play with, if you are forced to play on rails then the game enters a state of repeditive gameplay. Furthermore, there must be a high skill ceiling to facilitate extended professional gameplay. Surely you know this, but I'll just set the foundation for my argument.

SC2 is not released, it's not patched, it's going to be imperfect and weird. Again, that's totally true. But, again, Blizzard has been approaching the game from the totally wrong perspective to get to that point.

- Hard counters destroy creative gameplay, positional value, and micromanagement by eliminating the usefulness of these factors.
- Hard counters annihilate games that allow players to recover and make a comeback. This happens more often in 2v2 than 1v1 because of resource sharing now. Usually in a 1v1, once you start losing it's over if the players are of equal skill.
- Hard counters + low unit diversity + attack-move units with nothing interesting or unique about them make the game uninteresting for spectators and stale for professional gamers very quickly. I am already bored of watching the game and I've been watching games from the most talented and creative players on the US and Asian servers. CowGoMoo, KingHillBilly - both of which are Blizzard employees that are really good players - Artosis, Harrydg, PainUser, the list goes on man. But even with these minds set against the game, it still always plays out the same way.

When i worked at ubisoft, we could spend at least a FULL year just calibrating the game, Before and after it's release. The only mistake Blizzard did was to announce the game too early, now they are forced to release it even it is not perfect, but you know, that's the beauty of game on PC. you can patch them.

Yes, it's about time someone agreed with me. They announced both sc2 and d3 way too damn early. Blizzard is a glutton for hype. Now they've got that hype, and it's burning out. SC2 will sell no matter what you, myself, or the progamers say about the game, just because it has the Blizzard logo. But if the game doesn't shift away from hard counters and if many of the units don't see some dramatic changes then the game will fall into the same pit as wc3 - the melee will quickly become stale and everyone will adapt custom maps as the primary game as opposed to melee. When you think wc3, you think DotA, right? That's because melee died out hard and fast, and DotA was there to suck up the pieces. Yes, there's still pro wc3 players and still a proscene, but no one really cares about it anymore. It's just druids of the talon and cyclone everywhere. Yay. Extremely boring to watch. Very uninteresting game.

SC2 is that way right now.

Since you seem to be new around here I'll let you in on a secret - I'm a total asshole and I am merciless when it comes to bashing people or companies. So it's not like SC2 is getting special treatment just because I've got a grudge against Browder and his archaic ways of thinking.

RTS games are the most difficult games to design out of all genres. Companies need this kind of hard-ball criticism to help them get on the right track. People have become too soft and carebear and accept whatever it is they are fed with. If we want to play sc2 for 11 years with just as much fun and joy in the vanilla gameplay, we have to speak up.

[chorale]

Sorry bro, and no offense, but having worked in the industry doesn't really give you any more weight than anyone else. I've worked on game design and mods and balance and all that jazz for over 10 years. But these are still just my opinions, so treat them as such. I am curious what position you worked as? There's someone who claims to be a Relic balance designer on TL but he's totally clueless when it comes to anything about games.

No offense Taken . I started as a game tester, on the balance department, and finished higher in the rank. I’ve developed and managed multiple Private server of game like Ultima online and such, and I even had a SC campaign under construction, but it got cancelled a looooong time ago. So my opinion is my own and I will not dare to speak for other people.

Ubisoft is a terrible company. It has to be said. They weren't always terrible, but they are now. I can't really think of many good companies at all besides some console-oriented ones. Black isle was good, but that magic is totally gone. Blizzard is all about business now. But I loved Conquest: Frontier Wars and I wish companies like Ubisoft would pull themselves out of their ditches and move back into making quality games.

That sir, is your opinion and you are free to think that

those people also acknowledge the colossal and fundamental flaws that inhibit these games from ever going anywhere past "lol teehee" and into something memorable. .

That is sooo true !

SC2 will get big because Blizzard is pushing it go big as hard as they can. They're keeping everything tournament related locked down nice and tight in Battle.net 2.0, they're removing LAN to cockblock anyone else, they're introducing micro transactions, and they're going to extend production over 2 expansions. .

That I don’t know and I’m uncertain if it is because of the “bliz” name. However I can already tell that the idea of the 2 expansion is one of the worse idea…2 expansions to play the other 2 race ? beat’s me ! I want to play all of them naow !

It isn't just my opinion of that, either, but the opinions of many professional gamers, coaches of progaming teams, and other commentators. SC2 is boring and stale already and beta isn't even halfway done yet. A lot of the high-end players that I've talked to have specifically expressed boredom with the game.

It is also true that quite a lot of those “high-end” player are people who call themselves professional player, but in fact are just incapable of doing something else. Yet there is also quite a lot of high-end player who are just gamer who have a passion for the game and play them for fun, a serious fun perhaps. But still fun.

If you eliminate balance from the factors of the equation, the enjoyment of gameplay comes exclusively from the unit design. If the units are not fun to play with, if you are forced to play on rails then the game enters a state of repeditive gameplay. Furthermore, there must be a high skill ceiling to facilitate extended professional gameplay. Surely you know this, but I'll just set the foundation for my argument.

About the enjoyment of Sc2 unit. I cannot say, I don’t have the beta key ( damn them !)

SC2 is not released, it's not patched, it's going to be imperfect and weird. Again, that's totally true. But, again, Blizzard has been approaching the game from the totally wrong perspective to get to that point.

Perhaps. It is true that the value has been set very…. Very high with sc1.

- Hard counters destroy creative gameplay, positional value, and micromanagement by eliminating the usefulness of these factors.
- Hard counters annihilate games that allow players to recover and make a comeback. This happens more often in 2v2 than 1v1 because of resource sharing now. Usually in a 1v1, once you start losing it's over if the players are of equal skill.
- Hard counters + low unit diversity + attack-move units with nothing interesting or unique about them make the game uninteresting for spectators and stale for professional gamers very quickly. I am already bored of watching the game and I've been watching games from the most talented and creative players on the US and Asian servers. CowGoMoo, KingHillBilly - both of which are Blizzard employees that are really good players - Artosis, Harrydg, PainUser, the list goes on man. But even with these minds set against the game, it still always plays out the same way.

I’ve also watched all your replay and it’s true that zerg usually end up with hydra or mustache.. or protoss with carrier if you can ( but that was already the case in sc1 for the protoss). I just hope they balance everything a lot better… and.. hum.. FASTER.

Yes, it's about time someone agreed with me. They announced both sc2 and d3 way too damn early. Blizzard is a glutton for hype. Now they've got that hype, and it's burning out. SC2 will sell no matter what you, myself, or the progamers say about the game, just because it has the Blizzard logo.

Blizzard has become that since WOW, I kinda miss the Diablo 1 and 2 , warcraft 1-2 and Sc feeling. Warcraft 3 was a great game, but they forgot to get rid of the blademaster … hum.. invisible spell ? forgot the name . everyone played orc and rushed you. End.

Blizzard lost one of the thing that made them so superior.. the Cinematics… hell replacing them by animated gameplay in wow was horrible

But if the game doesn't shift away from hard counters and if many of the units don't see some dramatic changes then the game will fall into the same pit as wc3 - the melee will quickly become stale and everyone will adapt custom maps as the primary game as opposed to melee. When you think wc3, you think DotA, right? That's because melee died out hard and fast, and DotA was there to suck up the pieces. Yes, there's still pro wc3 players and still a proscene, but no one really cares about it anymore. It's just druids of the talon and cyclone everywhere. Yay. Extremely boring to watch. Very uninteresting game.

Funny. All the game I played almost never involved druids of the talon and cyclone -_-

Since you seem to be new around here I'll let you in on a secret - I'm a total asshole and I am merciless when it comes to bashing people or companies. So it's not like SC2 is getting special treatment just because I've got a grudge against Browder and his archaic ways of thinking.

Ho you are wrong there. I am not new around. I’ve just always been the silent man. I’m following this website and forum since… hola… since the “Fenix” got released. And I played and still play most of the campaign, both Sc and wc3

RTS games are the most difficult games to design out of all genres. Companies need this kind of hard-ball criticism to help them get on the right track. People have become too soft and carebear and accept whatever it is they are fed with. If we want to play sc2 for 11 years with just as much fun and joy in the vanilla gameplay, we have to speak up.

Can’t agree more.

[IskatuMesk]

Oh, so you're one of those sneaky guys that hides around stealing my pie when I put it on the window? :\ :/

It is also true that quite a lot of those “high-end” player are people who call themselves professional player, but in fact are just incapable of doing something else. Yet there is also quite a lot of high-end player who are just gamer who have a passion for the game and play them for fun, a serious fun perhaps. But still fun.

I seriously hope you're not questioning Artosis and KHB/CGM of all people... KHB was a professional war2 player iirc. Artosis... well, you already know who he is. I am not sure of CGM's history but he is extremely good. Most of these peoples can achieve A- on iccup. TheLittleOne was a top Supreme Commander player and achieved A- on iccup in only a year's time. They're not S-class progamers, but then again not even IdrA is an S-class - we'll have to wait for the Koreans to begin serious play of the game to see absolute top-end action. But many of the korean progamers have expressed dislike for the game.

Funny. All the game I played almost never involved druids of the talon and cyclone -_-

Check out the Blizzcon tournament videos.

That I don’t know and I’m uncertain if it is because of the “bliz” name. However I can already tell that the idea of the 2 expansion is one of the worse idea…2 expansions to play the other 2 race ? beat’s me ! I want to play all of them naow !

At first glance 2 expansions is a bad move, but overall it's an opportunity to develop a hell of a lot more content for the game.

[chorale]

WEll, in that case, i sincerily hope they will not just release campaign 2.. and 3... But add more unit ? like the lurker ( nobody use them ? what kind of shit is that  , they are superbe in defense and sneaky raid or to guard a narrow choke point )

And i still think the protoss could use their old corsair in the exact same way in Sc1, pur anti-air, for it seem protoss are weak on air ( carrier aside.. and even so.....)

[thebrowncloud]

WEll, in that case, i sincerily hope they will not just release campaign 2.. and 3... But add more unit ?

They have confirmed that the expansions will consist of pretty much just the campaigns and then some units added to multiplayer, but I'm also expecting a decent sized pool of new campaign units to add to the editor. Custom games and campaign makers will probably get the most out of the expansions, but they will be pretty well-rounded.

[IskatuMesk]

Wow... they nerfed the Void Ray. They nerfed the Void Ray. They nerfed Roaches! ... by reducing burrow speed and removing a single point of armor. Um, what the fuck are you guys doing, exactly?

I mean I guess the base damage increase is a good thing for Void Rays but overall they got nerfed pretty hard. They are even MORE expensive now. Why not just make Carriers?

[IskatuMesk]

GAME OF THE FUKN CENTUREE

btw because I screamed so much I used a pretty heavy dynamics processing filter on this video

SC2 Beta HD - Ricky_Honejasi vs Mucky 1/3 TvT - Brain Damage Xtreme - Mesk 2nd Gen

SC2 Beta HD - Ricky_Honejasi vs Mucky 2/3 TvT - Brain Damage Xtreme - Mesk 2nd Gen

SC2 Beta HD - Ricky_Honejasi vs Mucky 3/3 TvT - Brain Damage Xtreme - Mesk 2nd Gen

[AA7Dragoon]

^ I agree, Mesk. That was a terrible game between Mucky and Ricky.  Terrible!

[chorale]

Awhh Nice... ( awful) game

Too bad you are retiring of your sc2 coverage Mesk. it's important to thanks you however you did a tremendous job at it and your comment in the video are hilarous or... addicted ? whatever ;P

Hope you will still continue from time to time

[Xelxiuz]

I come back and see this fucking hilarious game pop out of nowhere. Why can't SC2 be like this from the ground up?

[chorale]

Did someone noticed that the immortal voice is actually the one from Tassadar ??

I do hope this is a mistake of their part or... maybe Tassadar will be back as an immortal ? immortal hero ? hmmm....

[Mucky]

1:10 of part 3 always makes me laugh. I still can't believe six tanks (two of which weren't sieged) destroyed my entire army save the thors and a few marauders.

[Xenon]

If a converter for the wc3 model format to the sc2 model format shows up, I'll try either a LoL RPG, or AO2.

chek dis

[Mr.]

If a converter for the wc3 model format to the sc2 model format shows up, I'll try either a LoL RPG, or AO2.

chek dis

BotA 2.0 imo