Re: LP Update/Comment Thread
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:59 pm
Hey guys. I'm working on getting donations set up.
Currently, it seems that Paypal reveals the real names of people who send me payment, and there are people who aren't comfortable with that and I don't blame them one bit. I also reveals my name which isn't really a big deal because technically I don't "exist", but it's something I'd still rather avoid if possible.
I'm looking into Patreon as an alternative because I believe it acts as a middleman and shields personal info from payees and payers. However, Patreon requires some foreign tax ID I'd never heard and and my grandmother knows nothing about. I'm still looking into this but, for the time being, it looks like the paypal donate option may be the only option.
/edit
I've spent the last few days nearly non-stop researching these subjects and trying to understand them, and I'm really getting nowhere. There is no compendium of knowledge about anything related to this despite how huge of a business it is for many people.
Tax ID's are an American thing in this context. The IRS uses it to keep track of you and all that shit. As far as Patreon is concerned, it seems that, in concept, the idea is to simply prove you are not a US citizen so you don't get hit by the enormous 30% taxation. However, donations or whatnot coming from Patreon still count as income, and is taxable (from what I've read so far). I have no interest in filing all kinds of tax shit and getting involved in such a convoluted process just for a few donations. However, it appears that the Canadian SIN can be used in place of a foreign ID and may automate or completely remove taxation problems. Unfortunately, Patreon's return e-mail didn't answer any of my really important questions, they just said "put in NA for the foreign ID until we update the site". That doesn't tell me if I am going to get hit with huge taxes, if I have to worry about taxes to begin with, or if I can use my SIN.
Paypal is a different boat.
The Donation button with Paypal has a 10k cap. If you hit this cap your account gets locked out and all funds are held until you can provide you are a legitimate non-profit organization by having some kind of id. Now, if I had 10k worth of donations I would be an insanely lucky and rich person, but it doesn't seem that big of a number if I produce videos for another 6-7 years and get semi-regular donations of 20-50 dollars every so often. Some years down the line I may inadvertedly cross that line and get burned.
The Paypal customer support suggested taking the Buy Now button and rebranding it as a Donate button. At first thought this seems like some kind of cheesy and potentially law-breaking workaround, but on second thought it may have to do with the legality of underlying mechanisms within Paypal involving those buttons. It probably has to do with some kind of fees or documentation associated with those buttons. This makes me a bit more wary of those buttons, because Buy Now may also result in a possible tax-related clusterfuck, if legal implications of wording are involved.
I have a lot of questions about these that only deepen the more I look into google. The FAQ's of neither site address even a shred of my concerns regarding the matter. As it is, I can probably put up a donate button and just hope for the best. At the worst my account gets locked out and I lose everything, but given people have been doing that for years and there are only a few cases of this being posted, I cannot help but think maybe Paypal had other reasons to lock those accounts.
/edit 2
After extensive reading on various accounts of dealing with Paypal and donations, I think it's safest to not do it.
Paypal treats Donations from a legal standpoint that effectively says "you need to be a non-profit organization".
Now, there are some interesting points to this but I am treating them as inconsequential for now.
1 - The Paypal representative said that I could use a Buy Now button and rebrand the image to a Donation image (using... drumroll, photobucket lol). Two things here. I asked him if I could continue to perform my services on a Personal Account and this was never answered. Research indicates if I went with this solution I'd need a business account and therefore be representing a corporation of some kind. Since nothing like that would actually exist, if any kind of documentation was required or any extra fees (likely) came as a result, I would be getting shit on for nothing. Also, it's a pain in the ass to set up yet another account for something.
The second thing is, I read an account where someone said a representative told them Paypal did not officially care if they used the donate button for a similar cause (a blog) but they could consider rebranding the image for it, though context on why was not given. This is uncannily similar to the advice given to me by this rep and alludes to some kind of inner policy regarding not simply how the buttons are used (e.g. a bunch of Russians donate to me and it gets flagged because "suspicious activity") but also how they are presented (obviously donations cannot allude to being given for a raffle or prize or anything). The specifics and similarities of these two statements definitely reflect policies that are not, in any shape or form, reflected in any part of Paypal's site.
Hypothetically I could post the button here, rebrand it, add a huge disclaimer, and if Paypal inevitably decides to lock my account and demand documentation, I can run the gauntlet these other individuals did, talking over the phone for hours to explain the situation and unlock the funds. But to be honest that is a really stupid way to run any kind of operation and I have enough stress without worrying if someone's donation is going to get held up or even lost because the middle man isn't doing his job right.
2.) The "Buy Now" button requiring a business account alludes to potential conflicts of interest should Patreon deliver regular payments to my account, as it constitutes as a business legally. Ergo, I am making income based on it. Literally no information whatsoever exists for the relationship between Patreon and Paypal, so either it's not an issue, or I might still need a business account to be secure. Why can't Patreon just pay to my credit card or bank?
3.) Theories exist that Paypal's limiting happens as the result of bots combing activity for red flags and not from individual complaints or monitoring. This is not surprising given the scale of Paypal's operation and the consistency of repeat limits being afflicted on what Paypal describes to be legitimate activity.
4.) Paypal's quoted statements seem to imply that being a registered non-profit organization is not necessarily a requirement to legally receive donations on Paypal, but a requirement to use the button and service in itself. This almost certainly has to do with American bullshit.
Above all, this has been a lesson in how absolutely mindblowingly retarded legalese, tax documents, and all things regarding donations and being a merchant really are. I pity anyone who actually tries to make a business out of this shit. It's a huge waste of time because no one wants to write information in plain English, much less make complete documentation. It is ridiculous how so many large organizations cannot even so much as present information much less organize existing information in a manner 99% of people can comprehend without paying hundreds for an accountant. It is like the entire system is intentionally designed to be as isolated and convoluted as possible to keep a few penpushers their jobs. Tax documents in their various forms are literally referred to as numbers and one or two letters. Shit. I need a glossary just to even have any shred of any idea of what half of these google results are even referring to. As it turns out, half of them have nothing to do with any of the related subjects.
I really want to just drop this entire thing and make some kind of personal deals with people who wanted to donate, but I might be getting close to having Patreon sorted out.
That brings us to the next clusterfuck.
Patreon's foreign tax ID requirement is not a requirement and this has been an issue for months as far as google tells. There is no concrete, solid evidence I can use my Canadian SIN in its place or what the potential costs or implications are for doing so or not doing so. The information does not exist as far as I can tell from days of googling. No seriously, this is bamboozling how fucked up this entire circus is. Some people just went ahead and did it to proclaim "hey it accepted it!" but it accepted NA for me, so...
Jesus. I've wasted way too much time on this bullshit. I'm going back to work for now. I'll wait to see what Patreon says about the tax for not having a ID, or if they even give me a straight answer. If you don't mind me knowing where you live, what your name is, and what you ate five and a half years ago, I think we can probably do something with Paypal, but I'd prefer Patreon and potentially setting up an alternate account on another site, like Payoneer. Patreon only supports Paypal and Payoneer. If anyone knows anything about that service or can vouch for them, do let me know.
/edit 4
I am going to be creating either a new HTML directory for the LP thread or translating the content into Gameproc and taking over it myself. I'll probably have to make new assets for the site and spend a long time syncing data, but this is necessary to support upcoming releases in a fluent way, I think.
A part of this process is going to be moving most existing applicable youtube content onto the FTP, including any of the Generation 1 LP's I have source files for.
No ETA on this but it's going to be a high priority if Patreon becomes a thing, since I don't want CC as an entity associated with my Patreon.
As a note, I'll still be using these threads for my content. They'll just be mirrored on the site for a more official and clean avenue. I'll probably simplify the thread a bit once it's all done and said.
/edit 5
I have the helm.
I am in control.
I am the system.
I will be spending the next (long) while off and on updating the Gameproc site to sync it with the entirety of the LP thread and my other releases (e.g. Black Sun and some unreleased articles). Then I will continue to update both the threads and the site with all future releases.
Currently the site has a refurbished and reorganization version of my About sections. I will probably copy some of the alterations/simplifications to the thread, but otherwise I think the thread is OK as it is, at least for now.
I am almost done verifying the incomplete 2013 Civ 5 game destined for the graveyard. I don't need to verify the second game I am working on because I 100% know it wasn't interrupted. I only need to make sure the encodes come out fine.
/edit 6
I am forcing stuff in and HKS and Mexicans are blindly telling me to "delete this". I am a true Web Developer now.
Currently, it seems that Paypal reveals the real names of people who send me payment, and there are people who aren't comfortable with that and I don't blame them one bit. I also reveals my name which isn't really a big deal because technically I don't "exist", but it's something I'd still rather avoid if possible.
I'm looking into Patreon as an alternative because I believe it acts as a middleman and shields personal info from payees and payers. However, Patreon requires some foreign tax ID I'd never heard and and my grandmother knows nothing about. I'm still looking into this but, for the time being, it looks like the paypal donate option may be the only option.
/edit
I've spent the last few days nearly non-stop researching these subjects and trying to understand them, and I'm really getting nowhere. There is no compendium of knowledge about anything related to this despite how huge of a business it is for many people.
Tax ID's are an American thing in this context. The IRS uses it to keep track of you and all that shit. As far as Patreon is concerned, it seems that, in concept, the idea is to simply prove you are not a US citizen so you don't get hit by the enormous 30% taxation. However, donations or whatnot coming from Patreon still count as income, and is taxable (from what I've read so far). I have no interest in filing all kinds of tax shit and getting involved in such a convoluted process just for a few donations. However, it appears that the Canadian SIN can be used in place of a foreign ID and may automate or completely remove taxation problems. Unfortunately, Patreon's return e-mail didn't answer any of my really important questions, they just said "put in NA for the foreign ID until we update the site". That doesn't tell me if I am going to get hit with huge taxes, if I have to worry about taxes to begin with, or if I can use my SIN.
Paypal is a different boat.
The Donation button with Paypal has a 10k cap. If you hit this cap your account gets locked out and all funds are held until you can provide you are a legitimate non-profit organization by having some kind of id. Now, if I had 10k worth of donations I would be an insanely lucky and rich person, but it doesn't seem that big of a number if I produce videos for another 6-7 years and get semi-regular donations of 20-50 dollars every so often. Some years down the line I may inadvertedly cross that line and get burned.
The Paypal customer support suggested taking the Buy Now button and rebranding it as a Donate button. At first thought this seems like some kind of cheesy and potentially law-breaking workaround, but on second thought it may have to do with the legality of underlying mechanisms within Paypal involving those buttons. It probably has to do with some kind of fees or documentation associated with those buttons. This makes me a bit more wary of those buttons, because Buy Now may also result in a possible tax-related clusterfuck, if legal implications of wording are involved.
I have a lot of questions about these that only deepen the more I look into google. The FAQ's of neither site address even a shred of my concerns regarding the matter. As it is, I can probably put up a donate button and just hope for the best. At the worst my account gets locked out and I lose everything, but given people have been doing that for years and there are only a few cases of this being posted, I cannot help but think maybe Paypal had other reasons to lock those accounts.
/edit 2
After extensive reading on various accounts of dealing with Paypal and donations, I think it's safest to not do it.
Paypal treats Donations from a legal standpoint that effectively says "you need to be a non-profit organization".
Now, there are some interesting points to this but I am treating them as inconsequential for now.
1 - The Paypal representative said that I could use a Buy Now button and rebrand the image to a Donation image (using... drumroll, photobucket lol). Two things here. I asked him if I could continue to perform my services on a Personal Account and this was never answered. Research indicates if I went with this solution I'd need a business account and therefore be representing a corporation of some kind. Since nothing like that would actually exist, if any kind of documentation was required or any extra fees (likely) came as a result, I would be getting shit on for nothing. Also, it's a pain in the ass to set up yet another account for something.
The second thing is, I read an account where someone said a representative told them Paypal did not officially care if they used the donate button for a similar cause (a blog) but they could consider rebranding the image for it, though context on why was not given. This is uncannily similar to the advice given to me by this rep and alludes to some kind of inner policy regarding not simply how the buttons are used (e.g. a bunch of Russians donate to me and it gets flagged because "suspicious activity") but also how they are presented (obviously donations cannot allude to being given for a raffle or prize or anything). The specifics and similarities of these two statements definitely reflect policies that are not, in any shape or form, reflected in any part of Paypal's site.
Hypothetically I could post the button here, rebrand it, add a huge disclaimer, and if Paypal inevitably decides to lock my account and demand documentation, I can run the gauntlet these other individuals did, talking over the phone for hours to explain the situation and unlock the funds. But to be honest that is a really stupid way to run any kind of operation and I have enough stress without worrying if someone's donation is going to get held up or even lost because the middle man isn't doing his job right.
2.) The "Buy Now" button requiring a business account alludes to potential conflicts of interest should Patreon deliver regular payments to my account, as it constitutes as a business legally. Ergo, I am making income based on it. Literally no information whatsoever exists for the relationship between Patreon and Paypal, so either it's not an issue, or I might still need a business account to be secure. Why can't Patreon just pay to my credit card or bank?
3.) Theories exist that Paypal's limiting happens as the result of bots combing activity for red flags and not from individual complaints or monitoring. This is not surprising given the scale of Paypal's operation and the consistency of repeat limits being afflicted on what Paypal describes to be legitimate activity.
4.) Paypal's quoted statements seem to imply that being a registered non-profit organization is not necessarily a requirement to legally receive donations on Paypal, but a requirement to use the button and service in itself. This almost certainly has to do with American bullshit.
Above all, this has been a lesson in how absolutely mindblowingly retarded legalese, tax documents, and all things regarding donations and being a merchant really are. I pity anyone who actually tries to make a business out of this shit. It's a huge waste of time because no one wants to write information in plain English, much less make complete documentation. It is ridiculous how so many large organizations cannot even so much as present information much less organize existing information in a manner 99% of people can comprehend without paying hundreds for an accountant. It is like the entire system is intentionally designed to be as isolated and convoluted as possible to keep a few penpushers their jobs. Tax documents in their various forms are literally referred to as numbers and one or two letters. Shit. I need a glossary just to even have any shred of any idea of what half of these google results are even referring to. As it turns out, half of them have nothing to do with any of the related subjects.
I really want to just drop this entire thing and make some kind of personal deals with people who wanted to donate, but I might be getting close to having Patreon sorted out.
That brings us to the next clusterfuck.
Patreon's foreign tax ID requirement is not a requirement and this has been an issue for months as far as google tells. There is no concrete, solid evidence I can use my Canadian SIN in its place or what the potential costs or implications are for doing so or not doing so. The information does not exist as far as I can tell from days of googling. No seriously, this is bamboozling how fucked up this entire circus is. Some people just went ahead and did it to proclaim "hey it accepted it!" but it accepted NA for me, so...
Jesus. I've wasted way too much time on this bullshit. I'm going back to work for now. I'll wait to see what Patreon says about the tax for not having a ID, or if they even give me a straight answer. If you don't mind me knowing where you live, what your name is, and what you ate five and a half years ago, I think we can probably do something with Paypal, but I'd prefer Patreon and potentially setting up an alternate account on another site, like Payoneer. Patreon only supports Paypal and Payoneer. If anyone knows anything about that service or can vouch for them, do let me know.
/edit 4
I am going to be creating either a new HTML directory for the LP thread or translating the content into Gameproc and taking over it myself. I'll probably have to make new assets for the site and spend a long time syncing data, but this is necessary to support upcoming releases in a fluent way, I think.
A part of this process is going to be moving most existing applicable youtube content onto the FTP, including any of the Generation 1 LP's I have source files for.
No ETA on this but it's going to be a high priority if Patreon becomes a thing, since I don't want CC as an entity associated with my Patreon.
As a note, I'll still be using these threads for my content. They'll just be mirrored on the site for a more official and clean avenue. I'll probably simplify the thread a bit once it's all done and said.
/edit 5
I have the helm.
I am in control.
I am the system.
I will be spending the next (long) while off and on updating the Gameproc site to sync it with the entirety of the LP thread and my other releases (e.g. Black Sun and some unreleased articles). Then I will continue to update both the threads and the site with all future releases.
Currently the site has a refurbished and reorganization version of my About sections. I will probably copy some of the alterations/simplifications to the thread, but otherwise I think the thread is OK as it is, at least for now.
I am almost done verifying the incomplete 2013 Civ 5 game destined for the graveyard. I don't need to verify the second game I am working on because I 100% know it wasn't interrupted. I only need to make sure the encodes come out fine.
/edit 6
I am forcing stuff in and HKS and Mexicans are blindly telling me to "delete this". I am a true Web Developer now.
