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Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:33 pm
by wibod
tipereth wrote:, blizzard broke hunters by giving them silencing shot and making arcane shot both scale with AP AND ignore armor.
Get arcane resistance lolololol.

Seriously Aimed Shot was changed because of this. Also I've never met a hunter that uses silencing shot.

Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:08 pm
by UntamedLoli
Doctor Doack wrote: Water elemental is great for killing flagged level 20s inside their town.
Yep, I proved that to be true.

Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:46 pm
by RazorclawX
wibod wrote: Also I've never met a hunter that uses silencing shot.
If your chosen class equal: Priest, Mage, Warlock, Shaman, non-Feral Druid, Paladin, or Hunter, then the hunters you're playing against suck rock.

Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:31 pm
by wibod
RazorclawX wrote:
wibod wrote: Also I've never met a hunter that uses silencing shot.
If your chosen class equal: Priest, Mage, Warlock, Shaman, non-Feral Druid, Paladin, or Hunter, then the hunters you're playing against suck rock.
I personally don't use silencing shot because I'm specced survival. Also I don't think SS works on hunters because their shots aren't technically spells.

Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:49 pm
by tipereth
My windfury one-shots warriors.

Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:31 pm
by IskatuMesk
Must be some shitty warriors.

Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:30 pm
by UntamedLoli
or Level 10's.

Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:29 pm
by IskatuMesk
I should upload my video of me 1shotting level 20s. That was a great video.

Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:00 am
by Xelxiuz
Hunter_Killers wrote: Because stunlocking takes so much skill right.

If you want a long explanation of how your comment is retarded, please reply. Otherwise, at least try to post a proper sentence before posting.
Yeah, I hated hunters a lot more than rogues on my mage, but with the addition of shadow step and cloak of shadows, mages are going to have a lot more trouble.
I don't know how you can argue that when in pre 2.0 your 31 frost is a guaranteed victory over a class that was designed to kill casters. I can elaborate more if you'd like, but suffice to say, mages owned rogues hard pre 2.0, 2.0 average scrub mages will not beat a CoS rogue, and come TBC when mages have 8k hp not including arena gear ( Lol, more then rogues ), I really can't see you losing with 41 frost. If you really want a long-winded explanation though, feel free to ask.
On the PTR as a frost mage I'd blink in and iceblock fucking over SS and then rape the hunter. But if you're fire then you're probably fucked. Blizzard did break hunters balance wise by allowing traps to be set in combat.
Because fire will always be the battlegrounds "i spam aoes then die" tree. Arcane is the one shot per 3 min tree. Ice is for arenas/duels/skilled people who can actually handle the pet bar. And while there are amazing fire mages, that means jack since they would be that much better and fearsome as ice.
And for the record, the Water Elemental is weaksauce. It needs to last a full minute and then maybe it'll be better, but as it goes it both doesnt last long enough in battle or take one fireball from Onyxia.
Sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but Blizzard basically made 3 trees. 1 is pure pve, 1 is pure pvp, 1 is a hybrid. That almost applies to every class. Whether or not each tree works for it's purpose is up for talks, but the fact is that's just how it rolls atm. Want pve damage? AP/ice or fire or go straight fire. It sucks, and I agree that each tree should have it's own use in pve/pvp, but that's just how the game works =(
Seriously Aimed Shot was changed because of this. Also I've never met a hunter that uses silencing shot.
I'm going to believe you're over-exaggerating there for a minute. If you really are serious though, I can understand why you wouldn't believe hunters are amazingly rigged for battlegrounds.
I personally don't use silencing shot because I'm specced survival. Also I don't think SS works on hunters because their shots aren't technically spells.
Again, ask for details if you want, but as far as I know, no hunter I know specs survival. Conversely, ever caster I've met bitches about hunters in 2.0.
My windfury one-shots warriors.
Must be some shitty warriors.
Probably, since there are still a quite a bit of players on nerzhul that are in valor and such at 60. However, what isn't a joke is a Tuf wielding paladin who crits/socs all his attacks during HoJ doing over 5000 damage. Gm Claymore over 7000. I'm talking leather of course. Clothies just die if they are caught.

Every class got buffed this patch, however, the jump in power obviously favours others then some.

From top to bottom:

Rogues: Going from beating nothing but warriors and other rogues to beating everything but ret paladins and resto shamans. Quite an upgrade. Though this is where the direction of the rogue should generally be headed (beating casters, losing to plate/mail/shields), it isn't even remotely close in TBC beta as rogues actually have 0 classes they can hard-counter at this point. Mutilate is also fun, but makes no one complain in comparison to CoS. Mutilate is just backstab 2.0 with conditions. Not even a new skill, rather a upgrade.

Hunters: Silencing shot, arcane shot, beast within. You name it. Once an already annoying presence on the battlegrounds have no escalated to a force that is almost always #1 when not AV on offense. The ability to own casters pretty much makes them a ranged rogue without stealth. Range for stealth? Definately range not counting CoS. Beast within really works nicely in 1v1s too, with .8 attack speed Broken Tooths and ZG bats annilating casters doing 200+ a hit.

Paladin: Crusader Strike. Your own god damn mortal strike. That works with your spell damage, making you want that ZHC even more. Already the best support class in the game, having the ability to do the HIGHEST BURST DAMAGE POSSIBLE in the game over a 4 second time frame is quite amazing when you have so many other redeeming features.

Druids: Once a not so cool to play class, powered only by their ability to kite spam/drink/eat in duels, they are now a powerhouse in 2 of their trees that are a force to be reckoned with. PVE wise, tree of life makes regrowth completely take over healing touch, and with the new HoT stackables, no other class benefits more then druid healing. PvP wise, Swiftmend feral is beastly for flagging/support while 41 pt feral druids with top of the line gear in 2.0 Mangle for over 1.8k crit bear form. A tank that nearly matches paladin burst, nearly matches prot warrior defense, and still has the option of shifting out for other uses? Damn that's a good upgrade.

Priests: Overall one of the highest upgrades in the game, but in terms of talent tree specs one by one, not so strong. However, with the appearance of shadow 41 pt talent and misery, you are now RAID VIABLE. Holy now has pvp capabilities as being immune to crits for 6 seconds after being crit is godlike (no more ambush crit backstab crit evis crit hooray! wonder if you can even be bursted down with this?) while discipline has to be the strongest 1v1 dueling spec for priests (even though it already was pre-2.0 for high caliber priests) with pain suppression versus classes that can't dispel, dots having a chance to resist dispel, and your pw:s REFLECTING DAMAGE BACK. Spread among 3 trees, these upgrades put Priests as the highest upgraded class, but sadly can't feel it due to it all spreading out.

Shamans: Well, being one of the great turtle classes they were pre 2.0, you'd logically realize there's not much upgrading needed, hence why they are so damn low on the list. However, while enhancement and elemental are still gimp and will never be more then novelty specs ( I really do feel sorry for shamans here ), the buffs to resto are beyond godlike. Heal 10% when being hit below % hp? Wow. Instant too! Suck that blessed recovery. Earth shield? Ha, rogues and warriors without MS have nothing on you, and even MS warriors won't crack your shell. A t3 shaman versus 5 average scrubs in t1 can last a little over 2 minutes if he pops everything, and possibly even kill a few. Do you know that with T3, you heal over 900 a  proc for earthshield? Stunlock WHAT? Not to mention your god damn 2k lightning shield trick still works.

Mages: Almost forgot about these guys. Basically Arcane got well, more one shot go lucky, fire got some moves to help them from getting owned, but still essentially is inferior to ice in pvp, and ice is now so pure pvp, it hurts to think you'd use it for anything else, and anything else for pvp. Water elemental while somewhat weak in hp, is not going to get targetted half the time because that gives you time to own the player. Also targettable Frost Nova with superior range is quite amazing when used strategically. Every bit as good as succubus. Then again, the WE does amazing damage (my gimp mage friend who casually plays only has knight captain crap and bought fm shoulders currently makes his WE do 500 a bolt) so it might be  wise for certain classes to kill it. Dragon's breathe for fire and blazing speed or whatever is amazingly good for pvp, but it really is a battleground build/pve thing. Spell power will be godlike in TBC, when you can access 150% frostbolt crits, which means you crit more bonus then even physical classes. Truely beastly.

Warlocks: Being the true gods they are (really, if you were a SL lock pre 2.0 and had problems with a class when using all your cds, you just had a problem..just not alone), really felt a hit. Nerf to SL to 20%, having only a felguard which does not replace succubus or felhunter (overall still better, but you give up alot still) and when speccing felguard not being able to get alot of other talents. It really hurt warlocks this patch. While still being powerhouses, they feel the effects as other classes can have semi-perfect builds that have alot of power (hunters/rogues) but they feel rather gimp. Still, this only puts them in the middle of the pack in terms of strength, but it really hurt them on the "who hit the jackpot" ladder.

Warriors: By far, the most straightforward class in terms of upgrade given. Prot is now even more amazing at tanking (still sucks for pvp cept versus rogues, and even then your devastate does jack), Fury is a nub spec that is used to run rampant on fear-dependant classes and raid dps, and MS has become even more controlled burst while having second wind/enrage. The thing is though, each spec forces you to go down the tree so far, you can't even get something useful from the other trees. 41 MS loses piercing howl, a godlike move required to fight rogues and other classes that kite you. Second wind also while helping, does not completely make every kiter get owned (like RCX says, it takes awhile, but it sure as hell isn't in the warriors favor as long as you are frost) Rampage is completely pvp useless, making is as cool as surprise attacks for rogues combat tree ( a tree that isn't even worth talking about  hurray! ), and well yeah. Warriors still lose to basically every single class 1v1, but kick ass when you have a paladin with you. And well, MS is still godlike debuff in any team pvp case for focus fire. So as long as you have that, paladins won't replace you =)

Rogues really are kickass now, by far the #1 class in this patch. This is one patch that is only a pitstop to TBC. Don't bitch about any class or say this class needs a buff, TBC beta is as close as you can speculate.

PS: Shadowstep sucks. Activating global cooldown + Lag + Guy who keeps moving = Owned. Not to mention someone who would hit arcane explosion rank 1 and knock you out of it :( Stealth required? Lol. It's not even a anti-kite ability. It's a followup vanish move.

PPS: Omg, I almost forgot the reason I even logged on this site, your local annoyance, Mucky, has now rolled alliance on Nerzhul, and is now most likely going to be a promising dwarf hunter come 60-70 =D. Only 53 levels to go Mucky!

Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:20 am
by IskatuMesk
Resto shamans can turtle and that's about it. They deal no damage. Shamans are by far the weakest class right now, especially when you take into consideration the bugs with WF and stormstrike. The only way a shaman can pvp is by trinket chain lightning spam. You don't have a trinket? Sorry, may as well reroll a rogue or a lock.

It is true that most of these means nothing in BC... except for one thing people overlook.

Weapons are scaling more than health does.

560 damage top-end twohanders and 200+ top-end daggers will screw with the balance quite a bit. New spell ranks means the casters that already 1shot people will 1shot people still, and then all the new plus damage gear will only make the situation worse.

Some classes will benifet more from this than others. Those classes being warlocks, rogues, and mages. Warlocks become truly indestructible, as if a shield only shamans/priests could get rid of isn't enough, rogues are now not only unable to die at death but also benifet from a massive tanking boost, and mages become concrete cannons, up from glass. Rogues will still laugh at any other melee class, especially in arenas where they can use absolutely everything they have every single time.

Unless they're a sword rogue. No one plays sword rogues.

Sometimes I wonder if blizzard actually plays their own games. This is just like diablo 2 was.

Additionally fire is awesome in pvp. The only thing is if you want to use fire you need to go all the way into dragon's breath to make it worthwhile. I do run into the odd AP-fire mage, though. POM pyroblast critting for 5k hurts just as much as frostbolts, nevermind the ignite ticking.

Out of curiousity, what classes do you have geared out xel? I think you have a priest and a rogue...

Edit -

One thing I remember HKS saying that definately accounts to the balance issues is the fact there is currently no way to mitigate spell damage. Resilience is being added, but that stuff is not only extremely expensive and difficult to obtain but it also won't help that much against mages or locks. To kill a rogue as a warrior, you have to put on 8/8 wrath or dreadnaught with your shield and hope to god he doesn't use some strategy. Maybe he'll get bored and leave you alone. Against a mage, you have to do 4k damage in two hits or you're dead, if he lets you move at all.

Blizzard should never have added the 41 talents pre-BC. It was a stupid decision.

edit II -

It's a good thing I have good co-ordination with some people since I will be most working on arena pvp as a shaman in BC. I can only hope a good group with organized team work will make up for the huge pitfalls in Blizzard's logic.

Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:24 am
by Arcan
I'd have to slightly disagree on the Ice Mage thing for Arena. I've done quite a few arranged 5v5 arenas, and an AP Mage's power to immediately take someone out of the game with a little help from other DPS is incredibly valuable. Then again, I've seen so many mages drop instantly in 5v5s, where Ice Block is an incredible lifesaver.

I've spent a ton of time playing 2v2 with a Shaman friend of mine. We've faced a lot of good groups, and I'd say one thing have caused us to overcome so many matchups that would otherwise be impossible in Theorycraft mode.

LoS, and positioning in general. Jesus Christ, line of sight is so important in arena.

In Nagrand you want to make sure your squishies/ranged are near one of the four pillars- if I get polymorphed or trapped, he can run behind the pillar until they're forced to attack me, in which case he heals me and they're back to square one except I'm more resistant to the incoming CCs.

In Blade's Edge the two pillars that you have to jump to give quite the strategic advantage. In a 3v3, Me (Warrior)/Hunter/Priest versus Warrior/Rogue/Priest (with their team having all of the best naxx gear, Might of Menethil, etc) just because I hamstrung both the Warrior and Rogue and made sure they couldn't get onto the platform while the Priest and Hunter frolicked peacefully on the platform, murdered everything in sight. I suppose I do have Dark Edge of Insanity, so the gear disparity wasn't that bad (though I haven't raided in 4 months).

I prefer the 2v2/3v3 scene a lot more than 5v5, despite being an MS Warrior... Mainly because I just get CC'd while they MA train through my party.

PS: Anyway, what the heck? Mucky playing WoW? This world is seeing its last days.

PPS: I think the Test server is going to be up again fairly soon for some minor patch. I'd love to duel some of you guys.

Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:40 am
by IskatuMesk
You're too overpowered to be dueled.

As for LoS, that is pretty much what I was expecting. I'm going to be putting together a good 5man team in BC and am interested in what classes you think I should get. I will be an Enhancement shaman, and there is HKS who is still deciding whether fury or MS is the best choice in post-endgame BC.

Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:28 pm
by wibod
Doctor Doack wrote: You're too overpowered to be dueled.

As for LoS, that is pretty much what I was expecting. I'm going to be putting together a good 5man team in BC and am interested in what classes you think I should get. I will be an Enhancement shaman, and there is HKS who is still deciding whether fury or MS is the best choice in post-endgame BC.
Feral Druid.

Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:40 pm
by tipereth
LOLOL i have a sword rogue :(:(

In all seriousness, the main issue with enhancement right now is that Stormstrike cannot proc windfury. Note that I use the word 'issue' instead of 'problem'. The main PROBLEM with enhancement is that it just isn't a good tree, even in concept.

With rogues and warriors and paladins, you have your trees divided to be based essentially on what weapon types you use to deal damage(2h, 1h+shield, Duel wield, swords/maces, daggers).

Now, hunters and warlocks are a bit different, in that their trees dictate what method they utilize to deal damage (DoT's, pets, direct damage) These two classes also benefit from a tree that directly improves their chances of surviving combat, Demonology and Survival. While these trees also carry specializations, some of the early talents can be worked into any build to provide survivability.

Priests and Mages can spec according to what type of damage you deal, fire, frost, shadow, holy, ect. However, once again, both classes have trees that benefit the class no matter what spec they are. Discipline has some of the best priest talents by far (15% mana regen in combat should be fucking trainable for priests) and Arcane holds excellent mage talents.

Druids come the closest to the shaman, in that their trees allow them to specialize in a field, that is to say, they can be good at spell-based damage but still sort of heal. THe only problem is, druids get to have their cake AND eat it too. I have no idea what Blizzard devs were smoking when they revamped the druid's talents, but I'd sure like to get my hands on some. First off, feral. Jesus almighty, feral. Okay, I understand that you need to get two 'forms' of your class into one tree, that's cool. Everyone gets a little of that love, even shamans. But druids get it in fucking SPADES. It wasn't enough to give them Mangle, which costs less energy than Imp SS, it wasn't enough to move OoC to resto. Even though it made little sense having it in Balance, it made the player SACRIFICE FOR IT. Now every feral druid will be sporting the same build, and they also get a 10% flat melee damage bonus. Oh cool, so do shamans. Oh, wait, shamans have to spec balls-deep into enh to get that talent. Druids need to use 10 points, in FUCKING RESTO. WHAT THE FUCK?! The talent in question also provides some other bonus, probably healing related, but you never can tell with druids. I would complain about being able to match dps with dps classes and tank with the best warriors, then pop out and heal, but I'm fighting for shamans right now.

I could go on with druids forever, but I'll end this with Innervate being made trainable. Yes, I understand what it's like to be forced to spec 31 resto in order to raid. You see, shamans had the EXACT SAME DAMN PROBLEM. Except, we didn't get fixed, and there was a mass exodus to druid.

Finally, we reach shaman. Like druid, shaman has retarded talent trees, in that they all do different things, instead of being simple and understandable. Elemental would be great, if it involved some sort of crowd control. Melee classes will close the distance too fast for ele shamans to do anything, even with earthbind and frost shock. Restoration would be great, if I wanted to play a paladin. How come druids get all kind of cool synergy spells in their resto tree, while we just get a lame +hit talent that should be in enh anyway? As you work down the resto tree, you find some damned good talents, I wont argue that. Not as good as other healing trees, but, hey, jack of all trades, right? Except, shamans STILL gimp themselves by speccing one tree to the 41-point, while other 'hybrids' (druid, paladin) can at least maintain some sense of usefulness outside of single situations.

And then you have enhancement. Now, since every class gets at elast one flat stat bonus talent, you would expect shaman to have theirs in their combination melee/buff tree, right? Nope, we get a % increase to mana, but not to intelellect. That is also the first and last talent in the tree desirable to a resto or ele shaman. (Instant ghost wolf please) There's also the issue of not being able to get close enough to anyone to hurt them. No slef-respecting anyone will let a shaman with a 2h out run up and beat on them, they'll just slow them and PEWPEW them from afar, or just die if they're a warrior, since most warriors suck shit now. Once you get to Stormstrike, you can either go for shamanistic rage, or hold off for NS or ele mastery. The latter option actually gives you a decent spec, albeit not as good as, you know, any other spec in the game. But regardless. Shamanistic rage makes you lose out on a whole lot, and the lower tiers of shaman trees are pure fluff. The end.


Re: Entire WoW Raiding guild BANNED!!

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:22 am
by IskatuMesk
Actually having a shaman, I can agree with most of your points which seem to be simply CnP'd off the shaman forums since there's a billion posts already. The only thing that really needs to be done with shamans is...

Shamanistic Rage becomes trainable (I don't care what level), level 41 Enh talent gives them a ranged CC (A STUN, not a slow, because every other class has a disable and shamans can't do shit).

I have a lot of experience with enhancement since it's the only spec I play. For me, closing the distance isn't really an issue, because I use los to my advantage, and keep an eye on where my team mates are. The issue is once you're close, you just get cc'd and unless WF procs like a nice lad you are in deep shit. I was able to 3-shot MS warriors in might with greens and blues and kite them around, but only when WF procced every single hit. Right now, with 2h windfury so broken and SS also broken, you are better off going dual wield.

Many say DW shamans are just a gimmick, but I've been testing it out. It actually works very well due to the way WF is changed. You don't have bloodthirst or enrage or anything really fancy, just an insane flat dps and the opportunity to fully recharge your mana. The mana thing is virtually pve only, since you won't get enough hits off unless it's in AV or AB to recharge your mana pool. Chances are, as Enhancement, you aren't going to easily expend your entire mana pool, anyway. Unless you're retarded.

Stormstrike just needs to be fixed. I foresee easily breaking 600-700dps if I can get a castigator/servo arm when my drenaei hits 60 or, if those are out of reach, some equivelent BC items. With some calculations, in full raid buffs, I could have around 3k-4k AP around ~63. At level 70, with Stormherald and AP gear, I will be a truly formidable foe.

If a CC is added. At least Stormherald will provide some degree of a CC.

Since I'll be arranging a very high-tier 5v5 pvp team with the best I can get my hands on across our guilds, I'm going to be running into the problem of shamans not having a CC quite a bit. Frost shock is really only useful for chasing, chances are you're using earth shock to kill. Flame shock doesn't keep rogues from vanishing anymore I believe (Someone care to shed some light), and you're enhancement so your lightning isn't that great.

And I gotta go. I'll return to this post later.

edit 1 -

One of the major problems with the balance is that there is currently far, far too much CC. One particular post on the shaman forums listed something along the lines of like 3-4 forms of CC for virtually every class but shamans right now. Shamans have no CC. You're dependant on stunnable weapon procs. Earthshaker makes a nice low-end enhancement weapon, for example.

I can't say I know a lot about elemental, but from what I've seen, it's a situational build. If it's AV or AB, you're in luck. Sit there, trinket up, shoot enemies for insane lightning damage. But that's about it. If you're caught in melee, your melee is completely gimped, same with Resto, except resto doesn't even have the ability to snipe effectively.