Enslavers Special Edition

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chris
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by chris » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:55 pm

I've updated it now
Andrea Rosa wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:31 pm
you have worked with Varanus in your sequel to Resurgence.
worked with him? lol, all I did was open up staredit via stardraft and make 3 maps. I never had contact with the guy, how could I, I had no internet in those days :)
Andrea Rosa wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:31 pm
most of the maps are huge and empty
There are quite a few maps like that in the Fenix. It is insane that campaign creations is featuring that campaign while declaring it to be among the best campaigns ever made. Clearly Lav has not played it since 1999. I'm hoping that when I am done with the spreadsheet I can work with Lav and update the campaign listing to feature campaigns that are actually recommended. If done properly, we could really revive this community. If he won't work with me (and there is a 90% chance he won't) then I will go at it alone and simply spread my spreadsheet around the internet.
Andrea Rosa wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:31 pm
An old campaign that comes to my mind is "The Alliance" by Varanus
It is actually called Alliances and it is made by JudasCloud. Indeed, it is JudasCloud's first campaign. The information on Pr0nogo's archive is wrong. I've known since the beginning of the year how terrible that campaign is. Yet, it is also the best 1998 campaign that isn't on my spreadsheet.

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:45 am

chris wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:55 pm
It is actually called Alliances and it is made by JudasCloud. Indeed, it is JudasCloud's first campaign. The information on Pr0nogo's archive is wrong.

No, I'm quite sure that the author was Varanus, I've known this since the early 2000s. You are right about the title however, it's "Alliances" and not "The Alliance". Another thing that I have just remembered is that the files originally did not have a mission number: the order of the missions was purely alphabetical (Astral Pain, Blacktop Blitz, and so on). Looks like someone tampered with the file names in the version found in Pr0nogo's archive. Further investigation is required, I'll see what I can find.

chris wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:55 pm
I'm hoping that when I am done with the spreadsheet I can work with Lav and update the campaign listing to feature campaigns that are actually recommended. If done properly, we could really revive this community. If he won't work with me (and there is a 90% chance he won't) then I will go at it alone and simply spread my spreadsheet around the internet.

You should definitely go for it, you are doing a great and much needed job. If I were you, I would open a specific thread dedicated to your reviewing effort (both here and on Staredit.net), where you can expose your thoughts to an audience that would not normally see them, but maybe it's a bit late since you have already reviewed most of the campaigns. Needless to say, I'm totally ok with the fact that you are using this thread to talk about your progress, but you may take this idea into consideration.

As a side note, I took a glimpse at Fringe Wars and... ugh! The best part is probably the readme, in which the author self-proclaims his work as "the finest campaign available outside of Blizzard" (which is never a good idea, even if you actually create a masterpiece), and also asking for economic support.
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by chris » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:30 am

Andrea Rosa wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:45 am
You should definitely go for it, you are doing a great and much needed job. If I were you, I would open a specific thread dedicated to your reviewing effort (both here and on Staredit.net), where you can expose your thoughts to an audience that would not normally see them, but maybe it's a bit late since you have already reviewed most of the campaigns. Needless to say, I'm totally ok with the fact that you are using this thread to talk about your progress, but you may take this idea into consideration.
I'll consider it, I'm not really sure which subforum I should use for SEN though, its all so vague over there. The thing is, I'm already necroing old campaign threads each time I review one and the ones with no campaign threads to bump are usually not worth going into much detail. I was planning to make a big thread for the spreadsheet once I finished reviewing everything (excluding things that are still being worked on, of course)

For now, here is the latest news on coronacraft:
- StarCraft: The Shadow of Space turned out to be a pack of scenanrios, 3 campaigns, and multiplayer maps. There is also a mod featured but without an executable. I used mpqdraft to generate one. All 3 are crap
- Dark Cold was insanely boring, I quit that one quite early on.
- Guns of tyrador started off as a pretty neat campaign but it is sadly unfinished. It uniquely features the unfinished maps themselves as well.
- Terran vengeance is one of the worst campaigns ever made, it competes with the likes of Starcraft Heroes, Starcraft gold, and stellar forces, campaigns so bad they are worse.
- Trial of the protoss was just ugh, the maps aren't even properly connected.
- Legacy of Kerrigan... I almost gave this a conditional recommendation as a IWBTG campaign, it is without a doubt the hardest properly functioning campaign I have ever encountered. What ultimately stopped me from doing so is that I could not figure out how to win the last level and I think its due to a bug.
- Silent warfare has nice spacious maps, which is a big relief after 3 campaigns full of cramped maps. Still, the plot and english is so abysmal that I had to quit after just 2 missions.

I now have only Montag to review, everything else I added to the corona tier as a result of being notified about montag has failed to get a recommendation.... Hopefully Fringe Wars, space madness, and the mind wars turn out to have a surprise for me, but I'm not optimisic at all after what you told me about Fringe Wars.

I'm also going to find whiplash's old thread and post the bad news regarding Ascension of Duran.
Andrea Rosa wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:45 am
As a side note, I took a glimpse at Fringe Wars and... ugh! The best part is probably the readme, in which the author self-proclaims his work as "the finest campaign available outside of Blizzard" (which is never a good idea, even if you actually create a masterpiece), and also asking for economic support.
Well, he's technically almost correct actually. At the time of it's release, Fringe wars was the 2nd best campaign ever made. A short lived position to be sure. 1998 was such a terrible year for custom campaigns....
Last edited by chris on Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Eredalis » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:55 am

Enslavers3a.scm:
Hm. Perhaps there could be a bug: Please check the locations and triggers for the upper right corner, which creates Ghosts. I had destroyed the yellow Command Center and left nothing over from that orange AI. My main base was in the lower left corner, where the brown AI is located at the beginning. I was gaining minerals and gas from the expansion in the lower right and after all was harvested, I drew all my stuff to the right upper corner, where the orange AI starts.

There was oddly a yellow Ghost and attacked Magellan, which was the first arriving at this spot. A Ghost?! That could'nt be, because during the destruction of this orange base there was no yellow Ghost left.

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:54 am

Eredalis wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:55 am

Hm. Perhaps there could be a bug: Please check the locations and triggers for the upper right corner, which creates Ghosts. I had destroyed the yellow Command Center and left nothing over from that orange AI. My main base was in the lower left corner, where the brown AI is located at the beginning. I was gaining minerals and gas from the expansion in the lower right and after all was harvested, I drew all my stuff to the right upper corner, where the orange AI starts.

There was oddly a yellow Ghost and attacked Magellan, which was the first arriving at this spot. A Ghost?! That could'nt be, because during the destruction of this orange base there was no yellow Ghost left.

I've checked it. That Ghost most likely came from the Red Terran base, because these yellow Ghosts adjust their attack paths and targeted assets according to your movements on the map.
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Eredalis » Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:18 am

Cool. After all these test games, I can say that Mission 3a is far harder than Mission 3b.
And this is hilarious, because Mission 4b is way harder than Mission 4a. Yesterday I'd beat Mission 3b. It feels like that player red acts way more aggressive than in the original mission. Getting the higher ground was not easy, all these Science Vessels keep on shooting their EMP bullets in the middle of my protoss forces.

The optional objective is a really nice concept. First I thought, it wasn't necessary to complete this objective, but I tried it and was pleasently surprised in regards of that whole idea. Tonight I will play the last mission "The Final Blow". Feedback will come tomorrow.

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:33 am

chris wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:30 am
I'll consider it, I'm not really sure which subforum I should use for SEN though, its all so vague over there. The thing is, I'm already necroing old campaign threads each time I review one and the ones with no campaign threads to bump are usually not worth going into much detail. I was planning to make a big thread for the spreadsheet once I finished reviewing everything (excluding things that are still being worked on, of course)

I think that "General StarCraft" should be fit for the purpose. Posting the review in the related campaign thread is also ok, as long as moderators don't have something against this practice (some forums have policies against resurrecting very old threads, but I don't know if this is the case with CC and SEN, probably not).

About Alliances, I've stumbled upon a website that hosts it: https://sites.google.com/site/starcraftcampaigns/maps
Contrary to the version found in Pr0nogo's archive, this one contains the original documentation, in which Varanus is credited as the author. Furthermore, as I remembered, the file names are not preceded by the mission number, instead there's the usual "[1]" prefix used for single player maps. Despite of this, the second mission of the first episode still isn't loaded automatically, because the trigger in the first mission looks for a file named "[1] Blacktop Battle.scm", while the map is actually named "[1] Blacktop Blitz.scm". The fact that all the other missions are loaded correctly (except for those that mark the beginning of a new episode, namely 5, 9 and 13), and that they are presented in the correct order, revalues the campaign to quite some extent.
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:15 pm

Eredalis wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:18 am
After all these test games, I can say that Mission 3a is far harder than Mission 3b.

It surely is. While the behavior of the three AIs is exactly the same in 3a and 3b (down to the triggered attacks) the presence of the nuclear strikes makes Mission 3a more difficult and more anxiety-inducing.

Eredalis wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:18 am
And this is hilarious, because Mission 4b is way harder than Mission 4a

This was very true in the original campaign, but the addition of Juggernauts makes the difficulty in 4a and 4b almost equivalent... Almost.

Eredalis wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:18 am
Yesterday I'd beat Mission 3b. It feels like that player red acts way more aggressive than in the original mission. Getting the higher ground was not easy, all these Science Vessels keep on shooting their EMP bullets in the middle of my protoss forces.

You are right. In the original campaign the Red Terrans did not research past level 1 armor/weapons upgrades, now they reach level 3. Moreover there are some triggers that make sure that their base is not poorly defended by the time you get there (it could happen in the original). This seems to have reflected on the number and aggressiveness of Science Vessels: to compensate for this, I have added some triggers that erase their energy when you destroy enough Bunkers and penetrate their outer defenses, so at some point they stop using EMP.

Eredalis wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:18 am
The optional objective is a really nice concept. First I thought, it wasn't necessary to complete this objective, but I tried it and was pleasently surprised in regards of that whole idea. Tonight I will play the last mission "The Final Blow". Feedback will come tomorrow.

I was undecided about adding that optional obective, but it seemed lame that Kazansky and Magellan could not be upgraded, and the ability to repair them is also useful. Ok, I look forward to receiving your feedback on Mission 4b.
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by chris » Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:15 pm

Andrea Rosa wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:33 am
Posting the review in the related campaign thread is also ok, as long as moderators don't have something against this practice (some forums have policies against resurrecting very old threads, but I don't know if this is the case with CC and SEN, probably not).
Well that is what I have been doing since november, lol. There's a lot of revived threads in this very subforum your thread is in and there's a lot of revived threads in the campaign contest subforums.
Andrea Rosa wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:33 am

About Alliances, I've stumbled upon a website that hosts it: https://sites.google.com/site/starcraftcampaigns/maps
Contrary to the version found in Pr0nogo's archive, this one contains the original documentation, in which Varanus is credited as the author.
That's the website where I thought I found out that JudasCloud was the creator. What the hell, I really jumped to conclusions. I guess you were right afterall then.... Damn, he used to be awful.

On another note, Montag plays like a supersized and easy andrea rosa campaign with terrible english and disconnected maps. Montag can't be recommended but it has great remastering potential for anyone who is interested...

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Eredalis » Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:11 am

Mission 4b accomplished. Great rework!
Like all other maps of your Special Edition, I like the additional doodads in every mission. Finally, Aiur gets its missed trees and higher raised jungle areas. :)
I also noted that Zergling rush coming around as soon as you knocked on the Cerebrates door. That killed me the first time, but then I attacked the expansion in the upper left corner at first and - AHA! No more Zerglings! That's the trick. :D

Otherwise the whole thing is a cool idea. Couldn't agree you more: a great campaign gets its well deserved remastered version for fans by fans. All thanks to you! Thanks for this, man...

/edit:
Briefing, Mission 1
Mengsk is saying in the last setence "You can use everything that we have."
But you cut the nuclear weapons and the battlecruisers. Shouldn't that monologue a little bit revised? :)

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:12 am

Eredalis wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:11 am
Otherwise the whole thing is a cool idea. Couldn't agree you more: a great campaign gets its well deserved remastered version for fans by fans. All thanks to you! Thanks for this, man...

And thanks both to you and Chris for giving me useful suggestions!

Eredalis wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:11 am
/edit:
Briefing, Mission 1
Mengsk is saying in the last setence "You can use everything that we have."
But you cut the nuclear weapons and the battlecruisers. Shouldn't that monologue a little bit revised? :)

Actually he says "you may retaliate with whatever force you deem fit". In this context, I think that the term "force" doesn't refer to the composition of military units; rather, it refers to the level of strength and aggressiveness that the Commander intends to adopt (this is further accentuated by the fact that the destruction of the Zerg bases has been demoted to an optional objective in this Special Edition). It's just a matter of linguistic nuances, in my opinion.


Off topic: what about the final mission of VotS? Did you eventually play it after you managed to beat Mission 5?
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Eredalis » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:31 am

Off Topic
I've interrupted VotS to concentrate fully on Enslavers. I've finished mission 5 and just had begun mission 6. Within the next days, I'll try to complete VotS.
/edit:
I have a suggestion for you, Andrea.
Most of the time you've used the (legendary) "ComBeep0.wav" for transmission purposes. Sometime it is a little bit overused. I suppose you possess the sound library of Starcraft and Brood War. There is a sound file existing called "Transmission.wav". You can found this file in directory named "Misc". Can you check it out if this file is more suitable?

/edit²:
Ah, I see, you've already made use of this file. Fine, fine.
But not quite in that kind of scope I have in mind. So what do you think? Are you on to take the pressure of that poor "ComBeep0.wav"? :D

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by chris » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:39 pm

Andrea Rosa wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:12 am
And thanks both to you and Chris for giving me useful suggestions!
You're welcome! I hope this is just the beginning of the rejuvenation of the custom campaign community. :)

On another note, I've finished with Montag: quest for freedom, as well as the remnants of Tier B. Overall, tier B has ended up being way smaller than anticipated:
- a lot of campaigns were moved to Tier A after voice acting was found in them.
- Two Church campaigns had to be moved to tier S because it was so obvious they were going to be too good and thereby spoil Tier A.
- The critter campaign has sadly been declared dead and has been removed from the spreadsheet

Overall, Tier B has been the tier where we finally start to see a large percentage of campaigns getting recommendations, with a roughly even split between those not recommended and those recommended. I will now move on to starcraft 2 for a while in order to finish enslavers redux, stukov series, and antioch chronicles and then I'll return to brood war with Tier A. I might also take a break as well before I begin with tier A.

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:56 pm

Eredalis wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:31 am
/edit:
I have a suggestion for you, Andrea.
Most of the time you've used the (legendary) "ComBeep0.wav" for transmission purposes. Sometime it is a little bit overused. I suppose you possess the sound library of Starcraft and Brood War. There is a sound file existing called "Transmission.wav". You can found this file in directory named "Misc". Can you check it out if this file is more suitable?

/edit²:
Ah, I see, you've already made use of this file. Fine, fine.
But not quite in that kind of scope I have in mind. So what do you think? Are you on to take the pressure of that poor "ComBeep0.wav"? :D


Yeah, I'm aware that ComBeep0.wav has been overused over the years, but I'm leaving it that way. As you have probably noticed, I've adopted certain standards in my campaigns: same intro style, same number of scenarios, three paragraphs for the epilogue text, etc. I've also tried to stay consistent with the use ComBeep0.wav, which I use in the the following circumstances:

- Unit death messages
- New/Additional/Updated/Optional mission objectives
- In-game dialogues (however, if there are multiple dialogues in succession, only the first message uses the sound effect, the subsequent replies are usually mute)
- Mission briefings (same as above with some exceptions, and using Transmission.wav for characters that suddenly enter the briefing room or in the case of intercepted transmissions)
- Very rarely, for other messages that are not dialogues, since they usually have a dedicated sound effect (for example: locked doors, computer terminals, error messages, etc.)

If I were to change the use of ComBeep0.wav in ESE, then I would be automatically forced to do the same for ToH and VotS, and I'm not willing to do it.
Last edited by Andrea Rosa on Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:18 pm

chris wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:39 pm
I hope this is just the beginning of the rejuvenation of the custom campaign community. :)

I have some doubts about an actual rejuvenation, however it would be great if there were more custom campaigns coming soon (possibly new projects that are backwards compatible with the original game, and not only for Remastered).

chris wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:39 pm
The critter campaign has sadly been declared dead and has been removed from the spreadsheet

That's a shame, I've seen some previews on YouTube and it looked extremely interesting, though a bit unusual for my taste.

chris wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:39 pm
I will now move on to starcraft 2 for a while in order to finish enslavers redux, stukov series, and antioch chronicles and then I'll return to brood war with Tier A. I might also take a break as well before I begin with tier A.

Of course, you deserve a little vacation... You don't look bad but I'm pretty sure you overdosed on StarCraft and Brood War eheheh!
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