Enslavers Special Edition

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:34 am

Eredalis wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:17 am
Inactive? I don't know, man. :D
I didn't tell you this so far, but I've been playing also the original Enslavers missions to getting a better picture of the distinctions between the two campaigns. (Original and SE)
The Protoss have NOT become inactive. They getting removed all of their probes. But they refused to attack me anymore. They attacked pretty constantly after the destruction of their temple, especially with Reavers and bulks of Scouts (7-10) plus Carriers (3-4)...

My bad, I used the wrong word. Of course they don't become inactive, they stop to produce new units, but they can still attack you with whatever units they have left.
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Eredalis » Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:09 am

So, I continued mission 3a from the last savegame and was able this time to successfully complete it. But cheaply: I ran out of resources and couldn't build anything for almost 30 minutes. The remaining resources were used for repairs. After almost an hour and total confusion about what I could do now, since any troop movement would have ended in disaster, with no resources to recreate forces, I simply sent Tom Kazansky to the second silo and then even to the third and the yellow command centers was shot to pieces by him and his mighty gun. LOL

Had I known beforehand that it was possible to win in such a cheap way... :sup:
But please look at my resources: (and check the spoiler text below)
Image
► Show Spoiler
/edit
Hm. I've been thinking thorougly about this since my glorious cheap victory. ;)
Is this mission meant to be won this way? I mean, in the original you have to crush the three stasis cells. But there are also some turrets, that doesn't allow such kind of sneaky victory.

/edit²
Almost forgot about this:
chris wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:14 am
I kind of think that 3a and 4a should be harder than 3b and 4b. Leaving the protoss to die should definitely be punished. :P
Agreed! ;)
But being not loyal to a man who has crowned himself to an Emperor could also be punished in a bad manner! :nosebleed:

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:49 am

Eredalis wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:09 am
I simply sent Tom Kazansky to the second silo and then even to the third and the yellow command centers was shot to pieces by him and his mighty gun. LOL

Well, this ain't good. Expect a new version in a few hours: I fill fix this in some way, and I will also increase the amount of available resources. Thanks for bringing this issue to my attention, Eredalis.
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Eredalis » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:22 pm

You're welcome! :)
There isn't such a possibility in mission 3b. (Turrets at the stasis cells, like I said)

I also accomplished Mission 4a. Even on the first try ... :plz:
The carrier is a first class idea to upgrade the map. I also liked the extended dialogues and the story-based text very much.
In terms of gameplay, I can only say that it can be played absolutely smoothly. Resources are more than enough on the map and could possibly getting reduced a little bit. Attack pressure is high, but the opponents can be eliminated relatively quickly if you know where to strike.

1. Nuke the temple. (All probes are gone, the Juggernaut stops attacking)
2. Nuke the brown terran. (A perfect expansion)
3. Nuke the red terran at his main. (The main threat in this mission)

Now it's no problem to grab all their resources (which you don't really need) and obliterate all their remaining buildings.

If that's okay with you, I would like to translate the Special Edition into German and publish it on my website, once everything is done.

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:19 pm

Eredalis wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:22 pm
If that's okay with you, I would like to translate the Special Edition into German and publish it on my website, once everything is done.

Of course, I'm fine with that. That also means more visibility. Also, feel free to translate ToH and VotS, if you like.
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:33 pm

The campaign has been updated.

In Mission 3a, the yellow Command Centers are surrounded by Missile Turrets, just like the Stasis Cells in Mission 3b; however, contrary to Mission 3b, these turrets are not invincible and will not automatically explode after the related Command Center has been destroyed. The AI for the Red Terrans starts later (as a consequence, Battlecruisers appear later as well). The building time for Nukes has been increased to 150 seconds, thus the nuclear strikes happen less frequently. Both the brown and orange expansions contain 1000 additional minerals and 500 additional gas (this change also applies to Mission 3b).

I have also restored some of the triggered attack waves that were removed from Mission 1.

@Chris: please, kindly update the campaign on your Mega.nz archive as well.
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by chris » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:29 pm

Andrea Rosa wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:33 pm
@Chris: please, kindly update the campaign on your Mega.nz archive as well.
I have now done so.

I have also more or less finished reviewing Liberation and The Fenix, the first two B Tier campaigns. The Fenix was a massive disappointment, its full of problems with the plot, the maps, and/or the gameplay in each mission and no one should even think of playing that mess. Liberation was heading towards a recommendation but a few very serious (and easily spotted) bugs made that impossible, it is extremely frustrating to see a campaign fail to get a recommendation just because the author neglected to do a single play test run.

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:43 pm

What I'm about to say isn't a direct reference to "Liberation" or "The Fenix" (which I have never played) but... how can someone possibly spend so much time in creating a campaign, and overlook the testing phase? Some bugs are really appalling. One of the most frequent is the infamous Location that should be active only on ground (or air) and yet all of its flags are checked.

I see that the next on your schedule is "War of the Tribes" by Gabriel Sorrel, one of the not so many modded campaign that I've played. I'm curious to see what you think about it. I was enjoying it a lot, but I had to give up around mission 14 or 15 because my ass was being kicked beyond recognition. It was in 2013, and I was about to begin working on ToH. However, I have improved my gameplay since then, when I'll be able to bring back Brood War on my retrogaming PC I may give it another try.
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by chris » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:27 am

Andrea Rosa wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:43 pm
What I'm about to say isn't a direct reference to "Liberation" or "The Fenix" (which I have never played) but... how can someone possibly spend so much time in creating a campaign, and overlook the testing phase? Some bugs are really appalling.
In some cases it is because they were contest campaigns that never got a patch after the contest. The most frustrating thing of all time in regards to reviewing a campaign is when you have a contest campaign with many bugs that DID get patches to fix its issues, but no one has a copy of the patch and so the older buggy version is all that remains. This is what has happened with the road to ruin and either hands of power or rise from the ashes (I forgot which one).

The Fenix has quite a few bugs but it is mostly a victim of a development environment with no standards whatsoever. Despite its issues it was the second best campaign ever released at the time of its release. Liberation on the other hand.... good god, there are bugs in there that can be immediately spotted the moment the map is loaded.

UPDATE: Holy shit, I just encountered a mission in Liberation that has a massive gamebreaking bug IN THE MISSION BRIEFING. How can someone fail so badly?
Andrea Rosa wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:43 pm
I see that the next on your schedule is "War of the Tribes" by Gabriel Sorrel, one of the not so many modded campaign that I've played. I'm curious to see what you think about it. I was enjoying it a lot, but I had to give up around mission 14 or 15 because my ass was being kicked beyond recognition. It was in 2013, and I was about to begin working on ToH. However, I have improved my gameplay since then, when I'll be able to bring back Brood War on my retrogaming PC I may give it another try.
War of the tribes is one of the only campaigns I know of that wasn't completely shit on by Pr0nogo so I have pretty high hopes for it. I do know from Pr0nogo that this campaign starts to suffer from 256x256 syndrome at the end though so this is probably going to take some time....

update: It already suffers from oversized maps by the second mission, jesus christ....

update 2: If things continue the way they are now, It looks like it's going to get a score somewhere between 75 and 65. I would say this campaign's closest relative is Empire Wars.

update 3: Interesting, the campaign's issues dissappear later on after those two oversized map missions. This campaign is almost guaranteed to get a recommendation especially with the character development and plot. This is one old campaign that has aged well.

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:07 pm

chris wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:27 am
In some cases it is because they were contest campaigns that never got a patch after the contest. The most frustrating thing of all time in regards to reviewing a campaign is when you have a contest campaign with many bugs that DID get patches to fix its issues, but no one has a copy of the patch and so the older buggy version is all that remains.

You brought me back memories of that time when, in 2004, I won a contest at Age of Empires Heaven... but it was a meaningless victory, because all of the other contestants either withdrew or failed to finish their campaigns within the given time. That sucked big ass, despite the fact that the campaign was very well received.

chris wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:27 am
War of the tribes is one of the only campaigns I know of that wasn't completely shit on by Pr0nogo

Who knows, perhaps he was constipated LMAO

chris wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:27 am
update 3: Interesting, the campaign's issues dissappear later on after those two oversized map missions. This campaign is almost guaranteed to get a recommendation especially with the character development and plot. This is one old campaign that has aged well.

Trust me, you will like it in the long run.

As a side note, I have always thought that many large maps would feel less daunting if only StarCraft could be run on a higher resolution (let's say 800x600). I know, this apparently doesn't make sense, but if you think about it, being able to observe a larger area would make the game progression feel less tiring.
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by chris » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:47 am

Andrea Rosa wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:07 pm

You brought me back memories of that time when, in 2004, I won a contest at Age of Empires Heaven... but it was a meaningless victory, because all of the other contestants either withdrew or failed to finish their campaigns within the given time. That sucked big ass, despite the fact that the campaign was very well received.
This happened here in 2012 with Church. There was a contest that got a ton of entries but in the end only two campaigns ever got finished: black and sunny: saga of 69-42 made by some incel, and Resonance made by Church. The former is one of the 4 garbage campaigns that managed to sneak into tier C so it doesn't really count as an entry imho, it is by far the worst scoring campaign of any CC campaign contest.


Andrea Rosa wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:07 pm

Who knows, perhaps he was constipated LMAO
Nah, it looks like Pr0nogo was on to something here, this is a legitimately good campaign. It's really sad to know that 10 years ago this would have been panned as a boring "build and destroy" campaign just because it is, you know, an RTS campaign for an RTS game and not an RPG.


Andrea Rosa wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:07 pm

As a side note, I have always thought that many large maps would feel less daunting if only StarCraft could be run on a higher resolution (let's say 800x600). I know, this apparently doesn't make sense, but if you think about it, being able to observe a larger area would make the game progression feel less tiring.
It can be run on a higher resolution, but not with the already existing modded campaigns.

Update: Well, Mission 9 of war of the tribes was a complete disaster. It's definetely the black sheep of the campaign....

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by chris » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:21 pm

Andrea Rosa wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:43 pm
mission 14 or 15 because my ass was being kicked beyond recognition. It was in 2013, and I was about to begin working on ToH. However, I have improved my gameplay since then, when I'll be able to bring back Brood War on my retrogaming PC I may give it another try.
I've reached mission 15. Neither 14 or 15 seem particularily hard. Can you describe what the mission you got stuck on so that I can know if you are referring to 14 or 15? 14 is the mission to send danimoth to the meeting and the opponents are protoss tribes while mission 15 is a mission against the zerg on Aiur. If it is 14 you got stuck on then you just haven't discovered the trick to winning it yet, it is actually the easiest mission in the campaign when you find the trick. If it is 15 you got stuck on then I'm a bit surprised since you start with a base at a very advantageous position. The main challenge with mission 15 is the lack of expansion points which makes you race against time to start taking over some enemy bases. The 2nd mission is still the hardest one I have faced in the campaign and the only one I had to use power overwhelming for due to its difficulty.

Edit: Oh now I see the problem, the blue zerg AI is insane.... oh well, time for power overwhelming. It's not a very well designed map. They can't seriously expect the player to be able to race the blue zerg AI without expansion points. Sigh, yet again the scores get lowered. From the completion of mission 7 until now the overall score has dropped slowly from 80 to 68.

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Andrea Rosa » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:39 pm

chris wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:47 am
Update: Well, Mission 9 of war of the tribes was a complete disaster. It's definetely the black sheep of the campaign....

Oh my God, Mission 9... I completely forgot that one (when you pass your 40s and head towards your 50s your memory plays tricks on you). Yes, it was badly conceived and poorly tested as well, I remember that I had to restart it too many times, but at the end I managed to beat it. I usually like defense maps, but here you are exposed to too many attacks coming from too many directions.

chris wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:21 pm
I've reached mission 15. Neither 14 or 15 seem particularily hard. Can you describe what the mission you got stuck on so that I can know if you are referring to 14 or 15? 14 is the mission to send danimoth to the meeting and the opponents are protoss tribes while mission 15 is a mission against the zerg on Aiur. If it is 14 you got stuck on then you just haven't discovered the trick to winning it yet, it is actually the easiest mission in the campaign when you find the trick. If it is 15 you got stuck on then I'm a bit surprised since you start with a base at a very advantageous position. The main challenge with mission 15 is the lack of expansion points which makes you race against time to start taking over some enemy bases. The 2nd mission is still the hardest one I have faced in the campaign and the only one I had to use power overwhelming for due to its difficulty.

It was Mission 15, I'm sure about it. I've just checked it on Pr0nogo's channel.

By the way, do you remember when you said that War of the Tribes wasn't completely panned by him? Well, apparently he has changed his mind over time: I have just finished discussing the topic with him, and he says that there wasn't a single worthwhile mission in the campaign. Needless to say that I don't agree with him, I think that the early scenarios had a pretty solid gameplay and a decent map design. Also the story was not bad. To be honest, I think that a mod was not necessary: if I remember correctly, the author only changed a couple of portraits and altered some unit quotes, and the custom artwork was not that great. WoT could as well have been a normal, unmodded campaign, but this is a minor issue.

Concerning Mission 2 (the one where you investigate the Temples), yes, I remember that it was very hard, however I managed to beat it in a couple of tries by amassing Carriers and Dragoons.
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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by chris » Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:14 am

Without a mod, you would see a inexplicable fenix instead of artanis in zealot form, god knows what sheik would be, a lot of things would not make sense. The mod is definitely needed for this one unlike liberation. The Pr0nogo of today is burnt out and hates everything so the opinions of that Pr0nogo is not one I care for.

I decided I'm done with the campaign, the other two missions are not particularly special and with the lack of a campaign to continue the story of the Onat I am not motivated to finish the rest. The campaign gets a slim recommendation.

Now it's time to review the three most mysterious campaigns on my spreadsheet.... assuming they don't have voice acting. Any campaign found to have voice acting in the dialogue will have its review aborted and the campaign moved to tier A.

Edit: Yup, tachyon has voice acting. Moved to tier A.

Update: fall of the gods is a perfect example of how NOT to do a plot for a campaign. Such a well made campaign destroyed by its plot, unforgivable.... Meanwhile, something weird is happening with vagrants, it has a overall score over 90%. I've never seen a campaign hold onto such a high score at this point in a review. I'm cautiously optimistic that this might be the first campaign to get a must play recommendation. Finally, someone has brought montag Quest for freedom to my attention and it's been added to the spreadsheet at the bottom of tier D. I'll be reviewing it right after I finish Antioch chronicles (StarCraft 2).

Update 2: It didn't hold, the score has dropped to 81%. Still, Vagrants up until mission 7 is one of the best campaigns I have ever played and it is the closest thing to an Eredalis campaign that is in English. It's plot is like an Andrea Rosa campaign on steroids, it's gameplay is mostly micro but also features good macro gameplay. Unfourtunately, starting from the end of mission 6 the quality of the campaign falls of a cliff as there was clearly no testing done from that point onwards.

Update 3: The avenger moved to tier A (it has voice acting)

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Re: Enslavers Special Edition

Post by Eredalis » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:46 pm

Image

Oh my gosh! You should reconsider this.
Suggestion: Simply use a fixed number of some hero Zerg (Hunter Killer, Devourer, etc) for guarding the cerebrate. And don't use permanent unit creation: Using a permanent firing trigger can be cause a big backlash by creating yellow-lined error messages in the game.

/edit:
You can't see it on the screenshot, but the hydras are dancing back and forth. They stuck there tightly.

/edit²:

The same thing happens at the brown Terran:

Image

/edit³:
You have removed some of the brown terran buildings from the start?
I do not recommend this, because the AI - especially the basis script - inclines to block themselves with buildings, which the AI has to construct to produces units. Set all core buildings on the map from scratch.

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