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Re: Hots taem

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:48 pm
by SteakofStake
On immortals, I think tyrande+strong aa is best (If I am thinking correctly on how tyrandes trait works) . So like a tyrande-gaymane combo will melt the immortals. Gul'dan, if uncontested and can heal off the immortal, should be able to kill the immortal fast. But I think he needs to go a certain talent at level one to keep up his sustained damage, and even then he needs 20~ orabs before that talent takes good effect

Speaking about gul'dan, when he comes out I am going to be playing him a lot, but I think the ideal comp with him is double support (or maybe just a strong sustained healer like monk), a strong AA melee hero, and a bulky tank that can dick the team (most success with etc probably)
With his ults, I see taking fear almost always over the rain of meteors, since the rains damage is very random. That being said, I think the rain should be strongly considered on immortals map. Start casting right before/during the start of an engage when the other team is currently in the area of the interns, and that ult should 1 shot any interns hit by it, as well as dealing damage to the enemy. Its shown in the hero spotlight later in the video, I think as one of the last clips.

I sinned and spent money on him, so I played 1 game in the PTR and had a better understanding of his limits than someone who already had him at level 6+, who died twice as much as me and did half the hero damage. He is definitely going to have a low win-rate like medivh and chromie, but when played right he is going to be a force to be reckoned with. He is easily countered by high-mobility characters (liming, illdumb, tanks in general) but magic shields are not as strong vs him, since his ability that deals the most damage has a 1.5 second cd, so running him with another mage would work well in theory. Although, dehakas w can do the same thing. Horrify is going to be strong no matter what, but getting in position to engage is tricky. Its probably the best disengage in the game, but when used to engage, its a little tricky to get the back line and not the front line to come towards the rest of your team.

Mesk. You will have a heyday every li-ming game you play vs gul'dans, unless you get solo feared then gg. He has no escapes until level 20, but its pretty easy to underestimate his W's healing definitely going to out-heal most sustained damage in the game. He has multiple talents to help heal him, mainly at level 4 and level 13. Level 4 he has the choice from lowering the CD on his w to 3 seconds when it kills anything, a 10% buff to lifetap (making it 35% mana), and an extra spell than allows you to kill minions for ~400 hp scaling (if you choose this your kinda dumb, the one that lowers the CD seems to be 100% better than that one. You will see lazy gul'dans choose this, unless they buff it before it leaves the PTR) To me, I think that the 35% mana on your trait is the best, unless you have no supports on your team. At level 14, you have the choice between giving yourself 25% more hp (makes him on the higher-side of the hp scale of assassins) and having a healthstone that has a 30 second cd and heals for 30% of your hp INSTANTLY, whether your in battle or not.

TL;DR I talk mostly about gul'dan. I kinda got a boner for him. People are gonna be very bad at him when he is first released, like the last 2 heroes.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:16 pm
by IskatuMesk
yeah guldan judging by the spotlight would be fairly easy for li-ming to kill, but I dread the thought of fighting him when his team has illidumb, butcher, or other point and click cc's.


Don't got too much to say about tonight. Another greymane game I lost to diamonds. Oh well, good experience, and one of them was messaging me after the game wishing me good luck and all that. We won vs them once earlier which was nice and a good game for my li-ming where I expected illidan to be more trouble than he was. I don't remember the other games other than the two krazy was playing while I was resting my fucked up neck and he was doing some good shotcalling. I assume he was trying to practice up since the arguments last night. Just need to keep it consistent. Having direction is important and everyone needs to be on the same page regardless of what their personal goals are, so if/when it blows up in our faces it's easier to understand why.

The worst case was the tomb game with azmo/nazeebo and a general lack of connection in the comps and gameplan. That was a high ranked opponent iirc but I didn't feel they were mechanically or strategically overwhelming like this map was against those diamond 1s a few days ago, we just fucked up our comp and didn't quite play it out well. Again I felt like I was doing well, I got in a bunch of kills on their failed dive and managed to outplay them a couple of times and generally survived well enough to feel good about how I performed. I don't doubt I can play at a high diamond level with li-ming, I just need to control my aggressive engages a bit more because sometimes I pull the trigger too easily or goof up my inputs and send a W or R out when I mean to only E. I will say that today was a VERY bad day for me though due to the crippling neck pain and electric therapy I was trying to use to relax the muscles (which didn't help at all). So I was delirious and distracted all night.

I have been trying Chromie often in QM trying to get a feel for where she may be strong. Honestly I have no fucking idea how I destroyed that towers of duum so easily on her when we started, but I feel like that's the only map she can really do well on.

The more I see Medivh the more I believh. But no one besides rax plays him so yeah. I might consider trying him in the future but I might be too sassy. Though his sass power is very high.

Depending how Gul`Dan goes I might pick him up pretty early, too. I feel like I need more caster options than li-ming or jaina but I am not particularly good with anyone else yet. I gave Illidan a try and... I felt even worse with him than when I first started playing the game. I accomplished utterly nothing, got destroyed by gazlow and co, and just felt utterly useless.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:43 pm
by SteakofStake
So I just tried zagayra on an ai game, and she...she's different.

Her talents vary but in general they seem to all be viable. She can solo bosses a lot easier now, if she takes mutalisk and corpse feeders.

Her level 1 talents are map specific. A lot of creep camps/no boss? go banelings level 1 talent. Creep waves are pile up easily? Infest. Want to try to solo boss? corpse feeders.

There really isn't a strong teamfight build for her, but there is one; I just don't think its stronger than her map control. This isn't to say her teamfight isn't strong, though. Both level 10's are strong for teamfighting, but you take maw if you can't get a grasp of the map and control in with creep. Nydus is 100% better, since you can checkpoint yourself throughout the map, up to 10 worms, and the passives. If you let a zagara get map control pre-20 you aren't going to take it back unless you kill her a lot post-20 because the creep just spreads everywhere. One thing I love about nydus is the built-in battle momentum while on creep. But again, you can't benefit from those passives unless you are able to get creep everywhere.

I noticed you don't need to keep a tumor up at each nydus, which is good of blizzard, that would be annoying as hell of a chore to remember. when split pushing lanes, zags are basically going to need to drop their abilities and run now, since entering nydus cancels when you are damaged by anything.

Her changes are positive, but you will see people go pretty linear talent builds to get the most out of a certain ability.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:01 am
by IskatuMesk
Ranked replays I am posting here ahead of my release because I feel they are important for everyone related to watch. ... sRK-22.mkv ... sRK-23.mkv ... sRK-25.mkv ... sRK-31.mkv

Will post more after.


LMFAO @ "oh you're having a hard time vs diamonds, here have SOME GRANDMASTERS INSTEAD LOL" fuck blizzard matchmaking is bad

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:06 am
by Krazy
I like the new zagara a lot.

When I have her and not the other team, at least.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:51 am
by Krazy
General knowledge:

Map Specific Bans/picks --
#1 priority - Tomb of the Spider Queen - Xul
#2 priority - Tomb of the Spider Queen - Johanna

Dragon Shire - Falstad
Dragon Shire - Leoric

Blackheart's Bay - Tracer
Blackheart's Bay - Zagara
Blackheart's Bay - Rehgar

Towers of Dum - Zagara
Towers of Dum - Thrall

Garden of Terror - Lost Vikings

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:37 am
by IskatuMesk
kerrigan doesn't really feel any different.

I still got blown up in team fights, still couldn't run from anyone, and still plenty of times I just didn't do any damage. As a duelist she is a bit better though, she can sustain some nova burst, but you don't have a magic shield so it's not really mitigating so much as it is just the hp pool boost.

The talents feel a little better though so I feel a bit more confident about playing her overall than I did before, but only if we have a lot of cc or high damage that distracts them while I jump in.

Abby mines didn't really feel much stronger but volatile mutation sure as hell does.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:32 pm
by Krazy ... D=80664512

NodboT got a whopping 1 MMR change for that Team League match.

It actually wasn't as bad as that Cursed hollow game where we first saw a Medihv ever. ... D=80443126

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:25 pm
by Krazy
This game of Blackheart's Bay where we were not favored and won--this was actually our biggest MMR gain from yesterday, I think.


Re: Hots taem

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:49 pm
by Krazy
I know we were most frustrated by that curbstomp vs. the grandmaster, but the game to focus on for improving is the Blackheart's Bay game here: ... D=80734306

I don't remember when we picked kerrigan but I think she was a last pick where Mesk wasn't sure what else to get. In any case, I think Kerrigan is a no go vs either Greymane or Lili.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:54 pm
by IskatuMesk
I just played like shit that game all around iirc, this is why I try not to play initiators because fatigue can make me a bit too eager to fight. My mechanics don't really diminish too much but I get thirstier.


The double hat level 20 talent on abby is really not that good...


/edit 2

Got Dannyboy.

Drain is so silly. It hardcounters Lunara and early on you can outdrain leoric. The numbers aren't as fantastic as Lunara or Li-ming but it's a bit safer and the fear is really nice. He's still kind of vulnerable to dedicated dives what with having no real escape, but demonic circle is hilarious because it has no animation or cast associated with it, just woop! and gone. They are so changing that next patch.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:09 am
by IskatuMesk
There was some confusion in pick order and who was doing what tonight. This happens often, despite roles being fairly static between members and the general role consensus being acknowledged during these times. At times, I may hover Abathur or others, but never take that too seriously - I don't meant to say I am for sure intending to take Abathur, but it may be a map I would like to take him on if I felt our comp and their comp made for it.

Unfortunately, Abathur in TL doesn't feel good because of most decent teams and their ability to destroy us. The games where Abathur would do well are those we tend to obliterate or I form equally well, if not better, with Kerrigan or Lunara, and pre-10. Of course I can't predict that in the draft, I can only go by the map and the things in front of me.

Traditionally, I prefer waiting for last pick. I only want first pick to take Li-Ming if it's up. If it isn't, my fallbacks are not generally something I want to get first because they get counter-picked very very easily. Lunara, for example, is hard countered by Morales, Milf, Lili, Kharazim, and Tassadar to an extent, and if they go double support I am basically useless. As the Sky Temple showed (the one with krazy dc'ing), I can sure enough kill anyone on their own, but maps that force team fights like that one are inherently bad for Lunara because you can't get picks nearly as easily. Only bad players let me pick them off like that li-ming and jaina were, but once they are next to Morales I can do absolutely nothing because her buff eats my entire ult chain and AS burst and the most I can hope for is CC chaining or for her to be out of mana. We had no real cc that game except for the D.

The Garden of Terror with jaina was bad because MC said I couldn't team fight under any circumstance. The second I was MC'd it was a lost fight, and MC has over double the range of Jaina's engage.

I think I can FP Kerrigan but only if I know A.) the map and B.) what everyone else is going. Preferably we have some high damage that is going to be picked up on the side. Two tank isn't bad with her either I don't think. In a case I might want to FP Kerrigan is sky temple, actually. Now that I was thinking back to it. But it isn't as flexible as Lunara.

As an idea of my pick priorities per map if Li-Ming is banned -

Butcher is interchangeable with any other DPS I've only played a bit of. For example, Gul`Dan I consider good enough to TL under a few specific cases now (but I might rather try Raynor instead).

Sky Temple -

My TL winrate on this map is utterly abysmal and half of those games at least I was Lunara. It isn't working because of the map layout and teams that we go up against on it. I can keep rolling it but I think biting the bullet and playing something riskier is worth attempting.

Kerrigan or Jaina (they sit in one spot and make for an easy combo, Kerrigan can hold the point easily)
Lunara or Abathur (Lunara can't stand and fight most of the time, Abathur is good for split pushing)
Murky or Butcher (Split pushing and Butcher is good for waveclear and holding points but is easy to gank)

Cursed Hollow -

I do well on this map but as a team we don't do that well. 69% winrate (lol 69) but I know many of the games we lost were hardcore throws against boss dives and sloppy positioning. This is my highest TL winrate map so I don't see any major changes necessary. Even Raynor initiator worked wonderfully.

Lunara or Abathur (best map for lunara imo, and Abathur can split push hard on here and be cheesy as hell)
Murky or Jaina (Jaina is easily caught out but the spots make for good teamfights, Murky can be very sassy)
Raynor or Butcher (Raynor can play denial, siege, and deals well with bosses. Butcher also does good with bosses and can take camps easily.)

Towers of Dum -

My second highest TL winrate map, tied with spiders. This is a map that favors bullshit plays and while I run Lunara very often on it the teams that beat us I feel utterly useless against. Done very well in QM with abathur on this map but I don't think it's as viable in teen league.

Abathur, Murky or Kerrigan (Teamfighting builds and narrow corridors make for hilarity but abathur can be hard on this map pre-10 Have a very bruisery, sassy comp. Don't run kerrigan vs stealths or harass on this map, they have too many escape spots.)
Lunara or Butcher (Lunara can only catch people between points but the fewer bases make her AS build good for siege, those side points are a fucking deathtrap for her)
Jaina (she gets caught out very easily on this map vs specific comps)
Chromie (I can run chromie on here if I feel the comps are up to it. It worked very well the one time we did it. The reason being she has a ton of safe spots on this map to harass from, but she's easy to catch like anyone else.)

Spiders -

The games we lose on this map tend to be insanely one-sided. This is also a very very bad map to go against Thrall on. Any time I am not li-ming I don't really know what to do, because there's next to no camps and the early laning and spider phases tend to dictate the flow of the game. I don't know how my winrate is so high on this.

Jaina, Kerrigan, Murky (Sassing and teamfighting map)
Abathur, Raynor, Butcher (damage on shit and abathur is good for teamfighting but it's a shitty map to split push for him. Butcher kills bosses fast so he might be able to duo it with someone like kharazim)
Xul (I can roll Xul on this map because it's easy to manage but I've lost every Xul game so there's better people to ask.)

Shrines -

No fucking clue. I ran Arthas once and aced it hard but I think it was a fluke. I am not good with Arthas. I don't own him. I am pretty confident with Gul`Dan on this map but some comps are really rough on it. Jaina does good on PvE for this map but the actual shrines tend to see her getting caught out badly.

Garden of Terror -

55% winrate that also sees many one-sided games. I never know what to pick on this map. It's very rotation-based and there is always a little bit of everyone getting caught out everywhere. Jaina has always ended badly on this.

Immortals -

A map we often lack damage on, which baits us into losing races, bad fights, and overall sloppiness. With a 33% winrate that assessment shows in my statistics. I've tried Lunara, who's been generally ignored by almost every comp I've gone against, and I haven't seen our tracer picks work out in this, either. We've lost a game to a sylvanus that took 2 forts and a keep before we even tried to stop her on this map, almost pulled out, then lost because we could ONLY kill her with our entire team and then die.

Meanwhile my butcher fucked a team with steak's Zeratul when we first started and I've murdered QM with both murky and abathur on this map.

Long story short, whatever we're doing for this map isn't working and I need to run something other than Lunara on it.

Some Fun Facts

Referring hotslogs, whose logs are likely to be inaccurate especially compared to ingame -

- Almost all li-mings build defensively, she's super popular, and her winrate is far below average. Hmmm.

- My Li-Ming winrate exceeds that of the team average but not by a very large amount (a few %). Out of 36 games I have a 58% winrate with her.
- Her winrate is bested by Lunara (15 games 66%) and Kerrigan (7 games 71%).

^ I construe the Kerrigan winrate to using her as a counterpick, and Lunara due to map-based picking.

- I have a 81% winrate against Raynor across 11 games. There's a few 100% winrates including 3 vs zeratul but I consider them flukes/statistically irrelevant.
- vs Tassadar I only have 25% winrate (8 games), kael 25% (4 games) anubarak 18 games 33%, sylv 35% 14 games, you see the trend? The CC heavy anti-casters or mitigators.
- vs False Dad I have played 30 games with a 56% winrate. He is an insanely popular hero but I don't personally have too much issues with him. What he does do is punish bad positioning which our team is notorious for.

- My winrates with allied Sylvanas, Brightwing, Uther and Xul are very high. These four are comfort picks for several people (Bill, Krazy, Oro) and it shows statistically.
- Allied Kharazims, Johannas, Leoric and Nazeebos have significantly under 50% winrate with me.
- With Diablo my winrate is 55%, lili 60%, milf 55%

^ Ranked should be relegated to comfort picks/roles and these reflect that very heavily.

- My TL MMR reflects plateaus commonly associated with loss streaks that then either dip or flat out and continue to escalate afterwards. Since my winrate is positive, largely based by clutch picks like Arthas and a steady stream of Li-Ming sneaking through, I continue to gain MMR despite hardly changing ranks since I was first placed. Currently I am 3/4 plat 5, but I was 1/2 plat 4 before last night.

- My winrates are highest with Ricky (60%) and HKS (57%). My lowest are with Rax (38%) and Rainbowdash (50%). With Krazy it's only 53%. Conversely there was extremely few QM's I ever lost with Rainbowdash.

I don't exactly know how Team statistics are made, but here we are.

- Ricky has the highest winrate, followed by HKS, Emu and Oro. Most of these players are ranked unnaturally low in blizzard MMR.
- My takedowns/deaths is the highest ratio (5.3), followed closed by Rainbowdash (5.2). Closest competitor is Ricky (4.2) and Emu is not as close as I'd have figured (3.6). HKS is the lowest at 2.5.

^ Having Ricky fasten onto someone like me is an excellent strategy since he plays exclusively milf. The free mana ensures I can keep doing my job, and do it a little more aggressively. Ricky is also usually with the team. His mechanics may not be amazing but the fact he's always with us shows statistically with a much higher than average T/D. It is odd that Emu is not near him, but I believe that is due to Emu playing non-support roles at times. Emu also sometimes doesn't notice things on the map as Brightwing or is constrained by the cooldown.

HKS's shitty T/D is from playing diablo and murky though I feel about 50% of his deaths are completely unnecessary and from being out of position or chasing too hard.

Raxyl, having not played very well in the last while since he hasn't practiced over a long time, shows results a little sore for his previous accomplishments in this game.

I attain the high T/D by playing safely and harass-centric. The T/D will dive when I play heroes like Kerrigan or Murky where I become too aggressive by being capable of initiation. This was a proven weakness in my playstyle in League of Legends with all tanks and initiation-capable heroes I ever played. It sometimes shows up in my Abathur when I pop evo too early or on the wrong person because I think of an immediate catch rather than the consequences of a prolonged fight.

Role Statistics

- Krazy's D has the highest rank winrate (66% over 9 games), followed by Steak (60% over 15) and HKS (58% over 48). Emu, over the course of 7 games, has only won 14% as a tank.

^ Our tank winrates are partially skewed by double tank comps, which is generally when Steak goes tank. HKS has played tremendously more games than Krazy and manages a healthy winrate with them, but his pool needs diversifying your bonds nigga. Rax was interested in learning new tanks for us - I recommended him to practice Leoric, Dehaka, Sonya, and Anub`Arak. Emu should never be tanking, we waste a good support/sylvanas player on this role. He's done very well in QM but we should focus on our proven strengths in TL if we want to see more growth.

- The only two people with positive "Bruiser" wins are me (100% with 1 arthas game) and Steak (50% with 4 games). I don't know what a Bruiser is. Apparently Arthas, Anub, Leoric, Tyreal and Artanis are bruisers. HKS and Rax's 3 games with this set have only seen one win each.

- Emu and Krazy top the healing winrates with 66% and 64% respectively. Ricky is sitting at 60%. Oro and steak are 50% and rax 33%. Other than Steak and Rax you've all played 17-25+ games with healers.

^ Oro's 50% winrate is mixed in with Battle Lili which saw a lot of success. I think he's wasted on support other than gimmick picks like that.

- "Support" contains Krazy's Tyrande and Tassadar at 25% winrate over 4 games. Tass is best for double support imo, and I know at least one or two games didn't have that.

- "Ambusher" contains Krazy's 100% with two Nova wins, Steak's 50% with 2 zeracool games, and a 70% winrate for me with kerri/nova/butch across 10 games.

^ I am bad with Nova, I won't pick her again most likely. The one butcher game was a win. More or less this reflects my unusually high Kerrigan winrate.

- "Burst damage" role reflects my li-ming winrate with a hit from Jaina and Chromie (53%), Steak's 3 jaina games saw 2/3 wins and Rainbowdash won the one game with Kael. Krazy didn't see that success.

- "Sustain Damage" oddly enough includes Greymane, so Emu leads me 62.5% to 61.1% with Raynor, 8 vs 18 games. Steak with 14 games has only seen 50%, which shows Gul`Dan, False Dad and raynor. HKS's 2 tychus games are 50%. Everyone else sees bad results with Krazy's 18 games at a 38.9% winrate, which includes Nazeebro and Valla as well as that Gall game.

- Siege shows top rankings with Sylvanas for everyone who plays her, being Rainbowdash (100%) across 2 games, Emu 75% across 4 games, and Oro with his Xul/Syl/Hammer at 68% across 22 games. Krazy's 56% is across 16 games and includes Zagara. My 5 games have only seen one win. Steak has 44% with Gas Loui, Xul, and Zagara.

^ Oro and Rainbowdash both play a better specialist, especially Sylvanas, than almost all of us. If Emu's not going support, that is what he should be taking if the map allows for it. I shouldn't be playing such a hero. I don't do well with it statistically and the games I picked Xul were picked usually last-minute or because I thought the map suited it. Even if those games were technically winnable, we didn't win them, so I shouldn't do it again.

- "Utility" contains the gimmick heroes. Steak is 3/4 games with Vikings, HKS is 66% with Murky, and I am only 42% with murky and Abathur.

- Our team's highest winrate averages with statistically relevant heroes are Brightwing (72%, 18 games), Kerrigan (71%, 7 games), Uther (68%, 16 games) Sylvanas (68%, 16 games) with others like Dehaka, Raynor, Lili, Lunara and False Dad occupying 62-66%.

^ These are mostly comfort or counter picks in action. Raynor is Emu's preferred sustained DPS and steak has also played him a few times. The high winrates with Brightwing and Uther reflect support preferences and Dehaka was generally rolled into a double tank comp. Sylvana's high winrate is reflected by almost always specialist mains picking her. Lili is a counterpick and she has a positive winrate to show. False Dad I think is entirely steak and despite inexperience has shown good results.

- Our lowest statistically relevant hero winrates are Johanna (7 games = 28%), Kharazim (8 = 25%), Jaina (8 games = 37%) and Nazeebo (43%).

^ While I did well with Jaina in QM, TL is too coordinated for any success to be had with my playing her. Johanna for some reason doesn't work out for us, and Krazy's black man struggles are shown repeatedly with him dominating the mid-lower statistics.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:29 am
by Krazy
If you are first picking Lunara, and we go Diablo + Artanis, then I can get Morales, and one wild card tracer/illidan/whatever. If we have enough meet to peel threats off me then I'd love to go more stim lunara. We just don't do this because we never really commit to having some auto-attack damage in our comp and I'm trying to pick support based around countering the other team rather than maximizing our strengths. If you pick Lunara, then our team will have some auto-attack which we can then work around more.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:30 am
by IskatuMesk
Yeah, I feel like a lot of the time we've picked Morales we've never had the peels for her.

Stim works very well with Kerrigan, too (and Raynor).

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:32 am
by Krazy
Well that's my thought, is that we can't really last-pick Lunara. She can't be in response to the other team, we need to build the team around her to make her work.