First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by Magic »

Alevice wrote: Fuck, you are right, it never dawned on me that the fucking Kerrigan flashback is happening on the damn desert.
I noticed it too, but I put it down as artistic liberty. There were a few in WarCraft, but I can't be arsed to remember them.
That said, was the char's space platform by any chance a re-orbited NG's platform.
I don't think so, I believe it was above Char before the zerg arrived.
Xenon wrote: I think I noticed that before, in the previews... It's apparently a nightmare so it doesn't have to be accurate but still...

Also, wasn't one of the planet environments (I think the junkyard Deadman's Port) originally named Port Zion? Did Blizzard's policy "experts" think that was offensive to anti-Semites or something?
That has be unlikely if you take The Matrix into account, the human city in Reloaded is named Zion after all... though publisher's do have marketing \ brand departments that take such into consideration and may attempt to avoid damaging publicity.

Edit:
Xelxiuz wrote: Look at Bioware, all their products go on the basis of THE CHOSEN ONE which is equally if not worse than Blizzard's own bread and butter. While DAO/ME/KOTOR are better story tellers than SC2/WC3/WoW/etc they are also created to be a single player story telling experience, and their gameplay is beyond joke status if we compare the two.
Bioware equally deserve to be slated as much as Blizzard in repeating the same aspects in their stories. I love Bioware's games, but I still cringe when I see the formula appear, how the (PC who is last of an ancient order) has to battle (Rising number of villains) and defeat the (assassins) whom are (controlled by the ultimate villain) and so on.
Last edited by Magic on Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by Thalraxal »

Magic wrote:
Alevice wrote: Fuck, you are right, it never dawned on me that the fucking Kerrigan flashback is happening on the damn desert.
I noticed it too, but I put it down as artistic liberty. There were a few in WarCraft, but I can't be arsed to remember them.
The offical reason is that the New Gettysburg Spaceport was always intended to be on the surface of Tarsonis.  Considering that there is a cut mission that takes place in New Gettyburg (using badlands terrain) that was replaced by The Big Push, there probably is some credibility to this.
Magic wrote:
That said, was the char's space platform by any chance a re-orbited NG's platform.
I don't think so, I believe it was above Char before the zerg arrived.
There was plenty of Terran activity on Char prior to the Zerg occupation of the world, plus there was the UED occupation during Brood War, so it's not too surprising that there'd be plenty of stuff up in orbit.  Building a space platform seems like the natural thing to do on a planet like Char anyway.  Who really wants to spend time down there?
Magic wrote: Edit:
Xelxiuz wrote: Look at Bioware, all their products go on the basis of THE CHOSEN ONE which is equally if not worse than Blizzard's own bread and butter. While DAO/ME/KOTOR are better story tellers than SC2/WC3/WoW/etc they are also created to be a single player story telling experience, and their gameplay is beyond joke status if we compare the two.
Bioware equally deserve to be slated as much as Blizzard in repeating the same aspects in their stories. I love Bioware's games, but I still cringe when I see the formula appear, how the (PC who is last of an ancient order) has to battle (Rising number of villains) and defeat the (assassins) whom are (controlled by the ultimate villain) and so on.
I'd like to write an argument about how Bioware at least switches things up abit, but I think it's more fair to say that Blizzard's Favourite Plot simply dominates the story and cast more.  While the Baldur's Gate PC, the two NWN1 PCs, KotOR PC, Shepherd and The Warden are all some variation of The Chosen One/Last of their Kind/Sole Survivor they do find themselves facing very different foes and situations.  Seravok, Irenicus, The Five, Mellisan, Mephistopheles, Darth Malek, Seran, Sovereign, Loghain and the Archdemon are all very different villains in terms of plans, goals and threat level.  Meanwhile, it's far to easy to compare the Xel'naga to the Titans and The Fallen One to Sargeras and the Hybrids to the Burning Legion.  Heck, I'm pretty dang sure that The Fallen One is also one of Sargeras' titles too.

I really think that's what annoys me the most about SC2's story: they've decided to throw away their alraedy established villains in favour of what basically amounts to Space Sargeras.
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by Magic »

Thalraxal wrote: I'd like to write an argument about how Bioware at least switches things up abit, but I think it's more fair to say that Blizzard's Favourite Plot simply dominates the story and cast more.  While the Baldur's Gate PC, the two NWN1 PCs, KotOR PC, Shepherd and The Warden are all some variation of The Chosen One/Last of their Kind/Sole Survivor they do find themselves facing very different foes and situations.  Seravok, Irenicus, The Five, Mellisan, Mephistopheles, Darth Malek, Seran, Sovereign, Loghain and the Archdemon are all very different villains in terms of plans, goals and threat level.  Meanwhile, it's far to easy to compare the Xel'naga to the Titans and The Fallen One to Sargeras and the Hybrids to the Burning Legion.  Heck, I'm pretty dang sure that The Fallen One is also one of Sargeras' titles too.
I agree. Perhaps I came off harsh about Bioware, it's just that they should be held in disdain for blatantly repeating the same plot elements, but that's not to say their writing and execution isn't any good for each instance that it occurs (Their games are RPGs - the plot is even more essential to keep the player interested).

Even if, like SC, the villain's are after power, Bioware's ones have motivations that are incredibly wide-ranging. Sarevok wants
Spoiler
a war so he can fuel the power of his dead god-father and become a god
, Irenicus wants
Spoiler
a soul so he can seek revenge on the elves who exiled him
and so on. In SC it seems to just be that Mengsk, Kerrigan and the Overmind (albeit with the ambition of reaching perfection) are after power for the sake of power.
I really think that's what annoys me the most about SC2's story: they've decided to throw away their alraedy established villains in favour of what basically amounts to Space Sargeras.
As much as I enjoyed WoL, when I step back and take a look at the similarities to RoC, I have to agree with that.
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by Xenon »

The editor has a "Donny Vermillion death" unit where he's a busted robot. Maybe they decided that was just too silly.
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by Xelxiuz »

I'd like to write an argument about how Bioware at least switches things up abit, but I think it's more fair to say that Blizzard's Favourite Plot simply dominates the story and cast more.  While the Baldur's Gate PC, the two NWN1 PCs, KotOR PC, Shepherd and The Warden are all some variation of The Chosen One/Last of their Kind/Sole Survivor they do find themselves facing very different foes and situations.  Seravok, Irenicus, The Five, Mellisan, Mephistopheles, Darth Malek, Seran, Sovereign, Loghain and the Archdemon are all very different villains in terms of plans, goals and threat level.  Meanwhile, it's far to easy to compare the Xel'naga to the Titans and The Fallen One to Sargeras and the Hybrids to the Burning Legion.  Heck, I'm pretty dang sure that The Fallen One is also one of Sargeras' titles too.

I really think that's what annoys me the most about SC2's story: they've decided to throw away their alraedy established villains in favour of what basically amounts to Space Sargeras.
Switching the villains is a given, but that's not enough considering if we compare the two companies; one is making games that are putting gameplay first, multiplayer second, story third (and there's no way you are telling me the melee is worse off than the story itself) versus a company that prioritizes graphics first, story second, gameplay 10th, and no such thing as multiplayer.

f you took away how great DAO/ME looked I guarantee none of you would have been claimed it was remotely good at storytelling because face it, it's the engine that powers the artistic design of Bioware's creations to life and that is why they are graphics dependent. Baldur's Gate and KOTOR and all that old stuff was relatively good looking for it's time and for sure starting from KOTOR their products were meant for higher grade computers so there's no merit in pulling that stuff out either.

Also note that I only emphasised the graphical section. The engines for Bioware games are incredibly lackluster when it actually comes to "realism", specially DAO where instead of opting to do the WoW thing and let character models mesh into each other for the sake of gameplay, we get gigantic hitbox circles where if I enter into your space with daggers instead of getting the advantage over your claymore I actually have to stop attacking and slowly back away like an idiot so you can hit me; just so I can hit you. And obviously there's no jumping which only leaves the relatively boring climb/cover in ME.

Point is, Blizzard gets a slightly bigger leeway because they give us a wider multiplayer experience whereas the only thing you can do in current Bioware games is learn to cheese harder and harder until you are soloing through with a stick naked. And while WoW does stick a lot of text in their quest logs it's not like the game was majorly voice acted anyway whereas ME/DAO love to boast about their voiceovers except 80% of their "lore" comes from codexes that require manual eye movement. The concept isn't wrong but it's clearly misdirection marketing.

Or do people actually care how stupid their weekly Lich King raid goes story wise rather than who gets the next Shadowmourne or who wiped the damn raid despite having 30% buff?

Modding capabilities if we look at their respective games it is roughly the same so I won't go there.
I agree. Perhaps I came off harsh about Bioware, it's just that they should be held in disdain for blatantly repeating the same plot elements, but that's not to say their writing and execution isn't any good for each instance that it occurs (Their games are RPGs - the plot is even more essential to keep the player interested).
Ironically enough while I felt that everything up to TFT had better voice acting than DAO/ME1-2, SC2 jobbed hard. It's not like SC2 campaign had the choice dialogue lines either, but it sure felt like it given how bad it was.
In SC it seems to just be that Mengsk, Kerrigan and the Overmind (albeit with the ambition of reaching perfection) are after power for the sake of power.
Mengks went from revenge to power. Same with Kerrigan. Overmind went from doing it's job, to denying it's destiny. However the execution basically made it the way you put it. Doesn't help that most of the characters have to be fleshed out in novels and 3rd party crap approved by Blizzard which most of us will never touch, though apparently most novels actually do a decent job of story telling, something I can't say for Blizzard games.

That said, the only villains I know in Blizz verse that pretty much flat out says I AM EVIL CAUSE YA KNOW I AM EVIL and have been fleshed out is Diablo, and even then we find out Mephy was banging one of Tyrael's cousins or something. Now that's wrong. On the plus side like Mesk always says Diablo is currently the only lore left that still has it's eerie feel and really the only tidbits of lore put out there (GAME WISE mostly) isn't enough to fuck up anyone's nostalgic trip from the past but honestly that's just because D2 nor D1 never had so much as a story as it did a really awesome atmosphere, specially D1. To this day it's damn clear the most memorable Blizzard track is Tristram.
The editor has a "Donny Vermillion death" unit where he's a busted robot. Maybe they decided that was just too silly.
Or maybe they are saving it up for a patch content or HotS. His exit wasn't exactly verifiable you know? That "brother" could just be plugged in memory or even a robotic brother. But yeah chances are it's scrapped.
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by Thalraxal »

Magic wrote: I agree. Perhaps I came off harsh about Bioware, it's just that they should be held in disdain for blatantly repeating the same plot elements, but that's not to say their writing and execution isn't any good for each instance that it occurs (Their games are RPGs - the plot is even more essential to keep the player interested).
It's a fair criticism.  While there is nothing wrong with repeating plot elements, (some authors have built their entire careers off of telling the same story over and over *cough*David Eddings*cough*) people do start to want see something different.

Bioware's THE CHOSEN ONE plot has never really bothered me.  It's mostly just a way to tie the PC into the plot and give most characters a reason to get involved in whatever's going on instead of staying at home and taking up basket weaving.  It would hardly be fair of me to give Bioware a free pass and not Blizzard and David Eddings, but Bioware's THE CHOSEN ONE is a much smaller element of the plot than Blizzard's (and one of the many Eddings repeated).

Villains are the driving force of the story, since heroes/player characters tend to be reactionary forces.  Even though the protagonists of most Bioware games are some sort of Chosen One, they're facing different foes and challenges.  In a typical Blizzard game, we're fighting against some sort of evil, shadowy manipulator who's been controlling everyone in the background until now, with the only possible solution being everyone teaming up and working together to fight the Great Evil.  In a typical Bioware game, the PC is THE CHOSEN ONE, but what he's been chosen to do differs.  Bioware's Favourite Plot Point (THE CHOSEN ONE) is hero-side, and while the hero is the main character, it doesn't define the story.  Blizzard's is villain-side, which results in it defining the story.
Xelxiuz wrote:
In SC it seems to just be that Mengsk, Kerrigan and the Overmind (albeit with the ambition of reaching perfection) are after power for the sake of power.
Mengks went from revenge to power. Same with Kerrigan. Overmind went from doing it's job, to denying it's destiny. However the execution basically made it the way you put it. Doesn't help that most of the characters have to be fleshed out in novels and 3rd party crap approved by Blizzard which most of us will never touch, though apparently most novels actually do a decent job of story telling, something I can't say for Blizzard games.

That said, the only villains I know in Blizz verse that pretty much flat out says I AM EVIL CAUSE YA KNOW I AM EVIL and have been fleshed out is Diablo, and even then we find out Mephy was banging one of Tyrael's cousins or something. Now that's wrong. On the plus side like Mesk always says Diablo is currently the only lore left that still has it's eerie feel and really the only tidbits of lore put out there (GAME WISE mostly) isn't enough to fuck up anyone's nostalgic trip from the past but honestly that's just because D2 nor D1 never had so much as a story as it did a really awesome atmosphere, specially D1. To this day it's damn clear the most memorable Blizzard track is Tristram.
I'd expect Diablo, Mephisto and Baal to the "I'm evil just 'cause" types though.  They are elemental forces of personified evil, so that sort of thing would seem to go with their job.

Diablo is easily one of the best examples of Dark Fantasy I've seen.  It's a genre about doom and gloom and fighting against something that you really have no chance of stopping.  The victories in Diablo for the Forces of Good turn out to be nothing but short reprieves, and may have actually helped the Forces of Evil in the long run.  It didn't need a lot of story to convey that.

Dragon Age is also Dark Fantasy, but its elements aren't nearly as strong or well developed as Diablo's, despite (or possibly because of) the fact that its story and characters are much deeper.
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by Xelxiuz »

You are comparing 3 prime evils that actually use their diabolic brain cells versus a bunch of infested dragons that like to sleep a lot and an army of hobos with steroid enhanced aids that prefer to only have one dragon lead them than I don't know, all of them at once? Doesn't help that the dragons also don't seem to like the idea to teaming up either despite being ya know, the big bad.

Basically through Bioware's logic, no evil in DAO comes from anything sentient at it's base. The maker basically just fucked shit up and went MEH I forgot to give them an IQ over 2. Oh well. I mean look at the Architect. He probably couldn't pass calculus class but he knew how to make peace.

ME2 is like old Blizzard. Reapers spell imminent DOOM and require everyone to team up but most importantly has a SOUND TRACK that has a few songs that are memorable like the menu song or Normany Reborn. The sound track and how you implement it during a cutscene is how you create a story telling experience, because god knows video games have the writers to make actual dialogue interesting enough to not require all them magic and space props lying around. Hell if you look at it from a Diablo POV ME2 even fits because it's grossly imbalanced just like D1-2 and basically took zero skill at all.
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by The Oracle »

So I made my way through the campaign. Here's a few quick thoughts as I think a lot of you guys expressed the same stuff with a lot of detail already:

Missions/Gameplay: I am very impressed with the creativity Blizzard's designers showed this time. Even though a lot of missions were B&D, they all had a neat gimmick which kept the gameplay fresh. I enjoyed the missions and that's a big stride forward from SC1's missions where I didn't enjoy the missions as much as moving through the storyline.

On the downside of missions is the fact that hero units are absent from nearly all missions. You get Zeratul, Tosh/Nova, and Raynor for a couple (and in one mission near the end, you get four heroes in a squad from the Hyperion), but beyond that, you don't get heroes. Blizzard mentioned in a panel that this was intentional because players would not 'use' heroes to attack with on a given map so heroes served little purpose. I still would like to have had them there just the same.

Story: For the first 5-6 missions, I was pretty engaged with it. Raynor was beat down and looking for ways to pick at the Dominion. Tychus shows up and introduces the 'artifact' quest. Horner has tension with Tychus' presence. And the Zerg attack against the Dominion core worlds.

On the downside of the story, after those first few missions, it became...lost so to speak. The real story didn't really get going until the last few missions. It was just more of the same. Sort of like a bunch of mini-campaigns rolled into one big one. Also, a ton of stuff was retconned. It's Bliz's universe they can do what they want. However, 56,000 people crash landing in Koprulu could not populate to over 10 billion in the course of 300 years. SC1 had much more realistic numbers with about 10 million people in Koprulu.

Also on the downside was the Raynor speech toward the end. It killed it for me. Cliche's and all. But oh well.

Dialogue: Most of the dialogue was solid I thought. The lines were at times cliche no doubt, but still it didn't make me cringe or anything. I'd have to say one of the best scenes was where Tychus and Horner were talking about Kerrigan. Another one I liked was the bar fight. And a third favorite was the Mengsk press conference after the 'recording' was aired.

As a final note about the story, it would seem that a bit of my own storyline has found its way in here be it coincidentally or otherwise. Please remember, LotC's story was written and the maps made before any SC novels and before SC2 was even in development.

The Oracle = 'The Forbidden One' (The Dark Voice/Evil Xel'Naga = 'The Fallen One')
Both of these characters were imprisoned by the Xel'Naga. And both are the last of their kind in the galaxy. (Of course, it's most likely that Blizz took the concept from Bioware's Mass Effect) but not unplausible they didn't. Remember, Blizz included a Zerg unit called the "Roach" into SC2 which of course is what the earth Confederation calls Zerg in LotC ("Roaches"). That's a lot of coincidences. But it can still be coincidence.

Now that said, I have little room to complain since LotC is built upon the storyline of StarCraft 1998 (prior to Brood War). So such is life. I just thought it was interesting.
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by Xelxiuz »

The roach was named such because of it's ability to tank, coming from the word cockroach. It was explained in full in one of the interviews detailing on how they create new units starting from the art and ideas into gameplay with fine tuning playing a huge part into whether or not it would make it past the initial stage.

As for the Fallen One, well Sargeras says hi. It's not that I don't think it's possible they ripped you off, it's more like Blizzard hasn't shown a hint of originality or creativity since....well never.
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by mAc Chaos »

*tries to read thread*

*can't because avatars are on the right*

*rages*
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by Maglok »

@Oracle: I wrote a few things for Lavvz and my project that also came back in SC2. But since we will all release later, we are gonna be ' But blizzard did that before!' ;)
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by The Oracle »

@Xelxiuz: I saw that panel and looked it up. I cannot find anything in the etymology of the word cockroach or just 'roach' by itself that has anything to do with resilience, armor, or toughness. Please see here:


Cockroach
Etymology folk etymology, influenced by cock and roach, from Spanish cucaracha, 'woodlouse', from cuco 'caterpillar'.

Please understand, if Roach found its way in from LotC, I have no irritation on it. Again, the core LotC plotlines are based in Blizzard's universe after all and many locations and characters are used. I just find it interesting.

@Maglok: SC2 has taken a very wide arc in its story. It doesn't surprise me in the least.
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by Legion »

The Oracle wrote: The Oracle = 'The Forbidden One' (The Dark Voice/Evil Xel'Naga = 'The Fallen One')
Both of these characters were imprisoned by the Xel'Naga. And both are the last of their kind in the galaxy. (Of course, it's most likely that Blizz took the concept from Bioware's Mass Effect) but not unplausible they didn't. Remember, Blizz included a Zerg unit called the "Roach" into SC2 which of course is what the earth Confederation calls Zerg in LotC ("Roaches"). That's a lot of coincidences. But it can still be coincidence.

Now that said, I have little room to complain since LotC is built upon the storyline of StarCraft 1998 (prior to Brood War). So such is life. I just thought it was interesting.
I immediately thought of your work when I played WoL. The whole "saving a colony from certain death" was kind of your thing, in my eyes. Not in the general world of storylines, but very much so in the Starcraft universe. Then the roaches and the super alien power voice ... A little obvious hah!

LotC went beyond some Blizzard boundaries, such as developing a plotline. Blizzard's best plotlines are the ones that aren't developed, strangely. It's when they start explaining things that they turn their franchise in yet another cliche story.

LotC, however, explained some things, added some things and changed some things around without it becoming unbelievable or trite. Blizzard did the same thing in WoL. They kept developing little bits and pieces at a time, getting the player more involved with the story and the characters. Of course, they finally tie it up with one big hell of a cliche and destroy whatever credibility it had, but that seems to be their curse.

Don't ever make this your job, Oracle.
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by Xenon »

Speaking of cliches, what's the deal with villains overusing the word "fool"? I see it everywhere.

Edit: Yep, tvtropes has a page for it.
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Re: First! Now let's talk spoilers (SC2)!

Post by The Oracle »

@Legion: Fear not Legion, the video game companies couldn't pay me what I'm making now in the world of business and management. There's no chance of me doing game design as a job.
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