Warlords and Merchants Discussion

[Mucky]

I think it's time to think about removing some SC1/Campaign units instead of going through the trouble of buffing/nerfing them.

Science Vessels: As much as you might want to argue that Science Vessels have a time and a place to shine, they really don't. The ability to heal mech is trivialized with the Medivac Savior. Irradiate isn't nearly as potent as it was in BW. They don't have defense matrix or EMP. No redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Swarm Guardian: Just get rid of this unit and replace the Mutalisk morph with Brood Lords.

Vulture: Possibly. Their only purpose would be for mines, as its attack is completely overshadowed by the Hellion. Even then, no one ever bothers with mines.

I could add more, but I'll stick with these three to start.

I say this, primarily because these are perfect to use for Elite/Combo units without having to resort to imported models or obnoxious tinting, and being occupied by units that have no spectacular role in the game is just kind of a waste.

[Krazy]

Vulture that shoots nukes.

[IskatuMesk]

Nukes that shoot vultures.

[Vetraeus]

Giant Firebat that has 5000 HP and shoots every unit/structure/doodad in the game and that crashes as you right click.
Or a science vessel with duel vultures attached to the hull that shoots swarm guardians!

[Krazy]

Merchants that shoot Warlords.

[Ricky_Honejasi]

My idea would be to actually to buff them in a way that have any real incitation to use them.

Heck, if you ask for them to be cut, it means I clearly overestimated how much people wouldn't like to use them.

For the Science Vessel, yes it lacks spells and spells that I could added much earlier but I expected the mech heal to be much more popular yet people being just a bit too lazy to use it. With Irradiate still doing 300-400 damage to bio over time for 60 energy, I still felt it was the cheesing spell that no one bothered vs Zerg (3 random casts and flee). Guess ill have to buff the damage over time but at 75 energy.

Defense Matrix can be easily added with the existing spell to give +300/400 shields (with a nerf of +50 for Immortals or such units). While EMP feels a bit overlapping with the Ghost, I can still just slap it on the Vessels as well.

As for the Medivac Savior argument, while yes it can heal mech but I always consider units in separated sets : standard units, combo units and Elite units due to merchant trees (Elite are still supposed to be split from Combo). So just because the Medivac Savior can mech heal doesn't mean I cut the Vessel because of that.

For the Vulture, I guess the real problem is nobody wants to click 100-200 times to lay all mines thus requiring too much micro. My best guess would be to manage to have an additional ability where ALL your Vultures drops a single mine at once in mid-combat thus dramatically cutting on the micro required to make them shine.

The Swarm Guardian might be the only one I would honestly consider to be cut since the Guardian and Brood Lord are just too similar and the Brood Lord is probably the one considered an upgrade between the two.

While I can understand the ultimate goal of freeing models, odds are it will be "useless" in a way. Odds are if I kill the units and "reuse" the models for high-end Combo or Elite units, it would be oversized untinted models to fit Combo/Elite Lv4 or 5 ones. Aka might as well keep and buff the base units and use oversized versions for whatever new units based off the models.

[IskatuMesk]

I think irradiate is fine on its own but defense drones on top of HSM/turrets are usually more appetizing.

[UntamedLoli]

Gunmasters should be using the War Pigs model just for performance reasons. I don't recall seeing it used anywhere else. Several units would be better off just using merc/hero units (that don't have lights) so they are actually different. Keep in mind with Science Vessels that they are single target and cost more for the purposes of healing. They don't have upgrades like the Medivac does to not suck at healing.

Everything also dies at retarded speeds to even try wasting supply on healing when the high numbers come out. They are going to be the first units to pop with splash.

[Vetraeus]

Gunmasters should be using the War Pigs model just for performance reasons

I concur, Dynamic lightning like that likes to eat my FPS.

[IskatuMesk]

iirc evweb removed the light model and gunmasters shouldn't be lagging anymore. That said, the War Pig could easily be used for other combo marines or such.

[Ricky_Honejasi]

For Gunmasters, I don't see why I would swap models since EVWeb already fixed the light issue. I think I need to drop their gas cost from 75 to 50 since for a "mass" type of Elite unit, we sure don't see them very often.

As for Science Vessel healing, maybe I could add some Adv.R tech that grants more mech healing over time. The Medivac (and Medivac Savior to boot) already have one for 2 targets at once.

[Vetraeus]

I have da best Idea! Give drones the ability to morph into broodlings!

[IskatuMesk]

too op imo

[Ricky_Honejasi]

Latest changes for FFS (not 100% final) :
1) Firebats modified to be anti-structure units.
2) Reavers now have 1.65 speed (from 1.25).
3) Science Vessels now have Defensive Matrix and EMP.
4) Science Vessels costs normally again. (100/200 from 100/150)
5) Terran Vultures can group deploy mines while moving.
6) Vultures' Mines burrow twice as fast.
7) Elite - Gunmasters costs 200/50 (from 150/75).
8) Reverted OP buffs from last week.

Notes :
A) While Def.Matrix can be used on Protoss units, it cannot be used on units with Hardened Shield-like buffs. This includes Immortals, Supreme Shielded Carriers and Pokelots.
B) If you have say 10 vultures and you hit the "Deploy Mines" button, each vulture deploys 1 mine at its location. Fully usable while moving rather than having to stop & target each individual mine.
C) Deploying mines have a 3 seconds cooldown between each batch to prevent cheesy ultra mass deploying all of your possible mines at once.

[IskatuMesk]

wtf is this firebat unit everyone keeps talking about