Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Created by RazorclawX, Wanderers of Sorceria tells an epic length story through multiple chapters and books for WarCraft III.

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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby NovaLan » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:27 am

Well, we can wait so no rush. I'm just wondering if you will do another massive update when the Reforged release. I fear that the current WOS can't be compatible with the Reforged.

I think the skill set of KOS Crusader is really good, but it's a pity that you can only use them in free mode.

Some model problems:In Shadow of the Tower, Hokuto's staff is somehow missing.
And the portrait of Nekurow Dark Fact is a bit weird, why there are something...like demon's horns on his head?

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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby RazorclawX » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:01 pm

NovaLan wrote:Well, we can wait so no rush. I'm just wondering if you will do another massive update when the Reforged release. I fear that the current WOS can't be compatible with the Reforged.

I'm fairly confident that it is even right now, although its true the main purpose of all these updates is to help make the eventual 'transition' easier.

I think the skill set of KOS Crusader is really good, but it's a pity that you can only use them in free mode.

KOS was a giant testbed for some of the Heroes' movesets.

And the portrait of Nekurow Dark Fact is a bit weird, why there are something...like demon's horns on his head?

You should look up a picture of Dark Fact.
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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby SilverGauntlet » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:54 pm

Dark Fact is a character with horns (a human with demon energy) from Ys 1, so RazorclawX put horns on as a reference to him, like how Adol class of Hikaru have red hair.
And big thanks to Razorclaw X for all the hard work on WoS, and for introducing me to the Ys series.
Actually, there are a few plot points I do not understand:
In The Lord of Nightmares chapter, why did Nekurow work with Shizuka? He would never do that. Unless this chapter is non-canon, of course.
'And why do deceased Sorcerians, like Kevin, appear as bosses in the chapter? Shouldn't their souls be returned to their original body?
Not really plot-wise, but the AI in that level is kind of bad, because most allied heroes do nothing, except Nekurow and Abolisher, and Nekurow is the only one who actually attacked the enemies in person; Abolisher only turn Spiderlings into Revenants and send them to battle, and the undead base do not harvest gold. Although I know that the player have to do almost everything, this is still irritating at a certain level.
And whose costume is Shizuka's Wanderer's Armor costume based on? Because Kurumi's is Lilia and Hikaru's is Ys Seven Adol, but I cannot guess Shizuka's because she is not really based on any Ys series character, and Lilia Kurumi is just a reference to Hikaru as WOS' Adol Christin.
First Interlude of Book 1 and Chapter 3 part 1 have splash screen potrait of Johan, although he is not the main guy of those chapters. War Update Interlude of Book 3 have Bannon's splash screen potrait, which isn't really fitting considering he is neither around Corona nor affliated with Coron-Nerub. And Chapter 8 Part 3 of Book 5 have the Fire Wheels' art, although it was about Yue Fang.

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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby RazorclawX » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:56 am

In The Lord of Nightmares chapter, why did Nekurow work with Shizuka? He would never do that. Unless this chapter is non-canon, of course. And why do deceased Sorcerians, like Kevin, appear as bosses in the chapter? Shouldn't their souls be returned to their original body?

The level is just for fun and he's not 'really' there just like how all the dead Heroes aren't 'really' there. A lot of it is just 'throw it in there' especially the B&D part because there was no stage where you could actually use the entire Mekani tech tree. Truth is you don't even need the Mekani and can easily finish everything with just the three Heroes.

It's no different from Fight Dragon and Dragon Slayer Arena.

Not really plot-wise, but the AI in that level is kind of bad, because most allied heroes do nothing, except Nekurow and Abolisher, and Nekurow is the only one who actually attacked the enemies in person; Abolisher only turn Spiderlings into Revenants and send them to battle, and the undead base do not harvest gold. Although I know that the player have to do almost everything, this is still irritating at a certain level.

They're almost entirely there just to defend the base, although it's still practically impossible to lose.

And whose costume is Shizuka's Wanderer's Armor costume based on? Because Kurumi's is Lilia and Hikaru's is Ys Seven Adol, but I cannot guess Shizuka's because she is not really based on any Ys series character, and Lilia Kurumi is just a reference to Hikaru as WOS' Adol Christin.

It's based off of Mint from Tales of Phantasia, one of the inspirations for her character. The biggest influence was actually Sakura Shinguji from Sakura Wars/Taisen although if you look at her Shizuka is almost visually identical to her standard look so I couldn't go with that. Shizuka started out as a thought puzzle to "How would Sakura turn out if she were one of the villains?" and it kind of went from there (granted in the end Shizuka's strongest attribute is Wisdom so she's worldly instead of naive, and she's not a klutz, nor does she fight for justice, so in some ways she's an evil mirror fun house version).

I haven't really thought about any other character as Ys characters, but I'd be interested in hearing opinions.

Speaking of Kurumi, it's pretty darn subtle, but her 'Hikaru outfit' being a miniskirt version of Hikaru's outfit is inspired by art of Elena wearing a miniskirt version of Chester's outfit in Oath in Felghana.

First Interlude of Book 1 and Chapter 3 part 1 have splash screen potrait of Johan, although he is not the main guy of those chapters. War Update Interlude of Book 3 have Bannon's splash screen potrait, which isn't really fitting considering he is neither around Corona nor affliated with Coron-Nerub. And Chapter 8 Part 3 of Book 5 have the Fire Wheels' art, although it was about Yue Fang.

I have a general rule to not use the same splash screen twice in the same campaign and some of those are a product of that rule while others are because there was no other place to use the art (Bannon's splash art would never be seen otherwise because of plot reasons, not to mention Scaldar's art was 'reserved'). Johan in particular is mostly because it would be too conspicuous to not have his splash show up early on (and in Book 1's case draw attention away from Nekurow's showing up so late).

Book 4's Intro is Hikaru dressed like 'Smooth Criminal' Michael Jackson and that's complete nonsense in addition to him not being in it at all.
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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby NovaLan » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:12 am

Well, my bad, I guess I have to try Ys later. But the real model doesn't have horns so maybe you can add them to
the model?

As for the splash screen, I saw Zava had a splash art on the introduction of characters but it never be used in game. I think Shadow Weavers is a good stage to use it.
The Hokuto one fits the theme of the level but it has already appeared in previous books.(Though I dunno if the splash fits Zava's current image.)

BTW, I really like the one Shizuka playing flute and the one Shizuka casting magic(swordswomen). It's a pity that can't see them again.

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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby RazorclawX » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:06 pm

NovaLan wrote:As for the splash screen, I saw Zava had a splash art on the introduction of characters but it never be used in game. I think Shadow Weavers is a good stage to use it.
The Hokuto one fits the theme of the level but it has already appeared in previous books.(Though I dunno if the splash fits Zava's current image.)

I think it WAS used there at one point and Hokuto was the replacement art. To be honest it didn't look very good and wasn't a very good reflection of who she was (the art itself was blatantly Kurumi and Zava isn't supposed to normally look like that-- or anyone for that matter. Although the way she is right now she looks like Kagero. Zava's current model is 100% recycled assets and while I'm not convinced she's staying that way she needed something).

Yeah I think I removed it because it looked like Kurumi.

Well, my bad, I guess I have to try Ys later. But the real model doesn't have horns so maybe you can add them to
the model?

It should unless I made a mistake somewhere. Although to be fair I should change his hair (maybe give him blatant anime hair). I was trying to change his hair and just tossed it aside for the time being because it was too much work and what I was doing was making it look worse.

ED: yeah sure enough it's not showing. The model somehow has the horns set to permanently not show at all.
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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby SilverGauntlet » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:46 pm

RazorclawX wrote:I haven't really thought about any other character as Ys characters, but I'd be interested in hearing opinions.

Chester Stoddart is quite an option, although I do not think he is really in line with any of the sword-user. Nekurow is my best idea, but he is very different in term of appearance, and maybe fighting style, compare to Chester. Only thing is that both wanting to take revenge for losing people who are closest to them.
And Kevin cannot have an Ys reference, obviously...
Although I doubt that you will make alternate skin for any of the heroes in book 3, 4 and 5 beside the main trio, since doing so for other characters is a ton of work, and alternate skins may not fit them.
Kanna is similar to Freida from Celceta, at least in term of fighting style. Miranda? All I can think of is Celceta's Calilica, as both talk a lot of philosophies (Calilica is way younger though, and her philosophies are directed more at her allies, especially Duren, or reskinned Dogi of Celceta - he was more interesting in Dawn of Ys from what I heard). Although I doubt any will work, due to animation change or difference in personality. Ys Seven have no party member fitting a character in WoS...
Not surprisingly, I cannot find anyone that can have a potential Geis skin.
RazorclawX wrote:Speaking of Kurumi, it's pretty darn subtle, but her 'Hikaru outfit' being a miniskirt version of Hikaru's outfit is inspired by art of Elena wearing a miniskirt version of Chester's outfit in Oath in Felghana.

She have one for Adol's armor too.
Another plot-related stuff: Roleena Winterbreeze is a ranger-class hero, and having her not joining the Azorbian Army, whose allied with the Artesian Remnants to avenge David's transformation is questionable, unless she is a hermit and not wanting to fight for anything anymore after Artesia's fall.

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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby RazorclawX » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:48 pm

Book 6 was completed around the time Ys SEVEN came out so I couldn't work in much of anything for that (after Ark of Napishtim I didn't think they'd bring Geis back for instance; heck I didn't think they'd bring back Terra from Ys V, either, but there you go). It was designed with Origin in mind (Lust fight is heavily inspired by the Kishgal fight while Clench's was inspired by Jenocres; Zava is nearly a direct lift), although in my design documents it was actually themed with Ark of Napishtim in mind (that's basically how long it took from planning to execution). Just about nothing in Ark ended up in it.

(honestly Ark of Napishtim was far from the best Ys game, but getting a new one after so long a time since Ys V came out made everything forgivable and exciting; the original Ark of Napishtim trailer with its unfinished boss theme was one of the best things to come out about the series in years)



And Kevin cannot have an Ys reference, obviously...

I don't know about that. Kevin will play a character even if the details are fudged here and there (not the least of which he's using a glaive-type polearm which you can't conceal).

Not surprisingly, I cannot find anyone that can have a potential Geis skin.

Geis is pretty much along the same line as Frieda and Kishgal. With this line of reasoning, see above (although definitely not as Kishgal because Kishgal himself sucks as a character).

Frieda is pretty much Kishgal with some of Geis and even some of Epona (Kishgal's sister and she also sucks). It's pretty much a Clan of Darkness thing at this point.

She have one for Adol's armor too.

The Chester outfit is more common in official artwork so that was more immediate in my mind. The idea of Elena picking up the sword was perhaps the most interesting thing about her (kind of like how the Heaven's Sanctuary OVA made Lilia more interesting, although the same show had the worst character design for Dalles ever).

ED: apparently the Sword Elena is a thing from Ys vs Trails in the Sky Alternative Saga side game as her Support action so that's why there's a bunch of official art of it.

Another plot-related stuff: Roleena Winterbreeze is a ranger-class hero, and having her not joining the Azorbian Army, whose allied with the Artesian Remnants to avenge David's transformation is questionable, unless she is a hermit and not wanting to fight for anything anymore after Artesia's fall.

She's only interested in making sure David stays in the ground as things go.
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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby RazorclawX » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:03 pm

I'm frickin stupid.

I realized I made a 'mistake' when designing the obligatory 'Meathook' skill that everyone loves and it's based on Channel, which the AI doesn't know how to use. And for a week I was trying to figure out how to get around that, but it turns out I didn't have to-- I already have an ability that does exactly that-- Sorana's Disruption Web spell.

As a temporary hold I was giving the Abomination Heroes the 'Impaling Horn' ability that the Spider Lord Heroes tended to have (which also drags guys to them by flinging people into the air-- this was an ability that existed in TFT beta and actually uses the air throwing graphic from it. If you look at the Crypt Lord's "Spell Throw" animation that's exactly what it was made for) and honestly that was working if graphically unsatisfying.

The only major difference is the 'Meathook' spell can actually miss if you dodge it. I think I can still make it work that way, but the other quirk about it is it grabs the first person it hits, and if its tanking something you won't ever see him throw it.
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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby SilverGauntlet » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:29 pm

RazorclawX wrote:
I don't know about that. Kevin will play a character even if the details are fudged here and there (not the least of which he's using a glaive-type polearm which you can't conceal).

Well, his 'revelation' and the fact that Book 3 to 5 don't have alternate classes for anyone but Shizuka, Hikaru and Kurumi are the reasons I think that way.
And to be honest, my Ys skins ideas dried out rather quickly. The disappointing fact about this is that many of the relevant characters in the series are not that interesting from my perspective, or do not fit any of the characters in term of personality or fighting style, or both.

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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby NovaLan » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:42 pm

Meathook is an ability that attached to my world editor(YDWE). But I haven't tried making AI use it because using that ability always makes game crush.
I think Impaling Horn is a feasible way. It may make AI writing much easier. I can only cheer for you.

ED: give the channel a command ID, and try to let AI cast the ability that has the same command ID as the channel might work?

I found a problem in X1, if you have finished X1 and finished Obeliesk missions before, finish the second round the secret level won't unlock.

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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby RazorclawX » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:04 pm

SilverGauntlet wrote:And to be honest, my Ys skins ideas dried out rather quickly. The disappointing fact about this is that many of the relevant characters in the series are not that interesting from my perspective, or do not fit any of the characters in term of personality or fighting style, or both.

Most of them are honestly very stock, even Adol and Dogi.

Karna in Memories of Celceta is completely different from her previous interpretations and appearance in both Dawn of Ys and Mask of the Sun; she was like a female Adol and did her own things and was the hero of her own story. And she kind of looked like a Fire Emblem Lord character. I'd go so far as to say she had more in common with Geis.

Not to mention if you only played Memories of Celceta you would be forgiven for not knowing that it was Leeza that was the heroine du jour of the story; a lot of people seem to be under the impression it's Karna.

If you ever play Origin... that game's story and characters are VERY anime. You kind of just have to stick it out with Yunica and Hugo because they both suck in their own ways just because you have to play one of them to unlock The Claw (because his identity is a giant spoiler if you don't know who he is) and he's the canon story of that game. The Claw is pretty much Edgy Incarnate, but he's ridiculously fun to play.

ED: give the channel a command ID, and try to let AI cast the ability that has the same command ID as the channel might work?

Channel is one of those abilities that Blizzard did not give an AI scripted action. It's meant to be a player-used thing.
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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby RazorclawX » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:06 pm

Finished porting Abilities to Books 1 and 2. This time it wasn't nearly as painful because as it happens almost everything in Books 1 and 2 existed in the same manner in the later versions. There are some exceptions to that of course.

From here it's a matter of which movesets I want to give which characters. For most of them they will have their original moveset and their Book 3+ moveset. A lot of the existing movesets are simply copies of the Merc Heroes from Warcraft 3 and I'm looking to change those.

Johan 2P - Brewmaster
Johan 3P - Tinker
Nekurow 3P - Beastmaster (it's the fucking Lich King it better be something cooler)
Kanna 3P - Alchemist
Shizuka 3P - Firelord

In addition to that, I'm removing three of Shizuka's classes so she won't be conspicuously running with nine (Ninja Maid, Harlequin, and 9th) where most characters are running four or five (Scaldar technically has six, but two are disabled).

Finally, and it's been a long time coming, all of Ziel's classes will have Twister Form. No more of that Tornado garbage.
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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby NovaLan » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:28 am

Oh no, I don't want Shizuka's classes get removed QAQ. After all she is favored by you, and having more classes won't hurt anyone. (Besides, if I don't mistake isn't Harlequin the 9th?)But of course, it's up to you to decide.

ED:oooh a while ago I found her 6,7,8,9th classes actually have the same moveset, then that's fine XD. (But their models may become useless)

Anyway thanks for hard work, that's so efficient that I really very admire you.

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Re: Wanderers of Sorceria Dedicated Update Thread

Postby RazorclawX » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:05 pm

Well to be honest it should've stopped at the 7th because her pink lolita dress is supposed to be equivalent to Hikaru's Chaos Lord. The 5th (Ninja Maid) means more if you get it from Hokuto and nobody else has an equivalent outfit. 9th is (Bunny) and she shouldn't have that at all even if it requires jumping through a lot of hoops to unlock it.

I think I just got a little too carried away with the fanservice and have been meaning to spread it around a little more (why Ayame gets to sit in a dunk tank in X2 and Kanna and Chika get Kitty Maid outfits).

ED: My current philosophy with the Books 1 & 2 classes are this:

- Hikaru will always have Divine Shield regardless of what his other moves are.
- Hokuto's abilities remain the same regardless of class and won't change
- Most of the characters have their original Book 1 &2 class and their Book 3-6 versions available. The main exception being Johan and Ziel where both movesets are identical.
- Most characters will have some sort of Healing option. The exception is Ziel and Hokuto.
- Most character will have some sort of pure damage option. The exception is Hokuto. This is new thing for Hikaru.

More specifically:

Hikaru
- 2P is close to his X1 moveset (super healer)
- 3P is pure damage with no healing spell (this SHOULD be okay on his solo missions)
- 5P Chaos lord is a bit of a mishmash of his later incarnations

Shizuka
- 3P Zande will generally have Sorana's moveset
- 6P is her 'healing' option although the moveset itself is unchanged
- 7P is aiming to be a little more creative with the theme

Johan
- 2P is still completely up in the air
- 3P is the 'healer' option with Healing Spray instead of Pocket Factory; it's otherwise identical and I wanted to keep this one around just because of how ridiculous it looks
- 4P is a lot more themed to Dogi as he was in Ys Seven

Nekurow
- 3P is more like the Lich King; probably could stand to be even more like his HotS version?
- 4P is more of a ranged mage/healer than a summoner

Miranda
- 3P is still up in the air as I might re-theme it entirely
- 4P is the 'healer' option
- 5P I'm looking to theme after Lana (Summoning Gate) from Hyrule Warriors.


Hokuto is exactly the same as before. Scaldar, Kanna and Ziel are mostly the same with few differences.
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