Warlords and Merchants Discussion

User avatar

IskatuMesk
Xel'naga World Shaper
Xel'naga World Shaper
Posts: 8776
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:40 pm
Location: M͈̙̞͍͞ͅE̹H̨͇̰͈͕͇̫Ì̩̳CO̼̩̤͖͘
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby IskatuMesk » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:21 am

Summary:

Add morph levels for static defense.
Allow Warlords to revive/relocate their Defender.
Merge Princess abilities with Queen.
Change the way Void Ray charges work.
Allow Warlords to get 6/6 upgrades for their own race.

+1
In all seriousness its really aggravating how much control a merchant has for fucking an entire game over


Delivery times. Really, that's just the big thing that stands out to me why they're so powerful. Upgrades, yes, but after upgrades it comes down to delivery times. Buildings die so fast, you have no hero units that can handle small armies like in wc3, and you always end up with roving deathsquads of air units that defenses can't kill.

I actually would like to see heroes return to this map, but not quite yet.

The big thing here is making those upgrades available to players and buffing buildings in general. This way, player infrastructure wouldn't be so flimsy. It's very hard to get a new infrastructure running once you lose the first one.

Some more Merchant/Warlord UI suggestions -

Color-code the cost of stuff. 100% should be green, any less should be blue, 105-130% should be yellow, 130-150% should be a darker yellow, and anything past 160% should be red.

With the costs (gas/supply/minerals), Green if you have them, red if not. (Not sure if the engine can detect that on the fly or not for a dialogue but it would help identify availability faster rather than me spam clicking on something when I forgot overlards).
Image~[Gameproc]~Image
Warning: dialogue contains politically incorrect content. Viewer rearsore may occur.

User avatar

Vetraeus
Terran Goliath Dome Polisher
Terran Goliath Dome Polisher
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:21 pm
Location: South Carolina: Underwater
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Vetraeus » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:10 pm

Here we can do this several ways for the Zerg. These are in my opinion the easiest approaches.

--Hatchery: Allows the spawning of "Broodlings" that have timed life and cost some of the Hatchery's Energy.
--Lair: Allows the spawning of "Hydralisks" that have timed life and cost some of the Lair's Energy.
--Hive: Allows the spawning of a small specialist army of the player's choice that consumes all mana and is permanent until killed.

--Hive +2: Allows the Hive to "train" Brutalisks and create a defensive structure permanently at the cost of a large sum of energy. (Using the Queen=Creep Tumor Effect)

--Scourge Nest: Creates x3 Scourge upon enemy arrival within 8 Aerial Range. (Scourge have Timed Life and can manually be spawned)

--Advanced Spine Crawlers: +500 HP, +0.46ms, -0.26as, +2 Range

--Spore Cannon: Launches long range spores that deal "Area of Effect" damage to aerial targets and benefits from "Zerg Air Attack Ups." (13 Range, 20-45% Splash, 750 HP, 4 Armor, 3.02as, 40-60 Pure Damage)

--Hunter Killer Upgrade: Turns Hydralisks in Hunter Killers. (+80 HP, +20-35 DmgVsArmored, +1.5 Range, +0.46ms, 1.22as)

--Advanced Spore Crawlers: +450 HP, +0.64ms, -0.46as, +2 Range

--Adv Up.Bile Pit: Baneling nests will now spawn a baneling instantly at the cost of 0.5 supply and 25 Gas, (4 In Stock) (Cooldown Based)

--Adv Up.Excessive Gland Buildup: (Corruptor): +20-35 DmgVsArmored, +2 Range, +0.43ms

--Adv Up.Eroding Acids: (Roach): +10-25 DmgVsBiological, Reduces enemy armor by 4.0 + 0.5 Per Missile Upgraded.

--Adv Up.Oversighted Defenses: (Overseer): Increases the duration of Infestation by 4 seconds and deals 2.5 Dmg/sec for the Duration.

--Adv Up.Live Again to Grow a New One: (Brood Lord): If a Unit is killed by the Brood-Lord's Impact damage, the Brood-Lord is healed for 25 HP.

--Adv Up.Sneaky Butter: (Baneling): Allows banelings to cloak for 5 Seconds. (Banelings have 30 Energy)

--Adv Up.Frenzied Regeneration: (Defensive Structures): Grants a 8% Lifestealing effect upon Zerg Structures that deal damage to enemies.


Now review these, and make your assumptions, these are the easiest things to do in the dreadful SC2 Editor, but they are possible and may enhance the zerg playstyle perhaps making zerg live longer and win a game?
Do not argue with an idiot; He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

User avatar

IskatuMesk
Xel'naga World Shaper
Xel'naga World Shaper
Posts: 8776
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:40 pm
Location: M͈̙̞͍͞ͅE̹H̨͇̰͈͕͇̫Ì̩̳CO̼̩̤͖͘
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby IskatuMesk » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:58 pm

Vetraeus wrote:Here we can do this several ways for the Zerg. These are in my opinion the easiest approaches.

--Hatchery: Allows the spawning of "Broodlings" that have timed life and cost some of the Hatchery's Energy.
--Lair: Allows the spawning of "Hydralisks" that have timed life and cost some of the Lair's Energy.
--Hive: Allows the spawning of a small specialist army of the player's choice that consumes all mana and is permanent until killed.

Maybe. This adds a bunch of micromanagement that I imagine half the players here couldn't handle in existing late-game situations.

--Hive +2: Allows the Hive to "train" Brutalisks and create a defensive structure permanently at the cost of a large sum of energy. (Using the Queen=Creep Tumor Effect)

yesssssss

--Scourge Nest: Creates x3 Scourge upon enemy arrival within 8 Aerial Range. (Scourge have Timed Life and can manually be spawned)

I like the idea of defensive structures automatically spawning attackable units like interceptors for zerg.

--Advanced Spine Crawlers: +500 HP, +0.46ms, -0.26as, +2 Range

Should be an upgrade for existing crawlers.

--Spore Cannon: Launches long range spores that deal "Area of Effect" damage to aerial targets and benefits from "Zerg Air Attack Ups." (13 Range, 20-45% Splash, 750 HP, 4 Armor, 3.02as, 40-60 Pure Damage)

Yes, this would help vs lolvoidrays

--Hunter Killer Upgrade: Turns Hydralisks in Hunter Killers. (+80 HP, +20-35 DmgVsArmored, +1.5 Range, +0.46ms, 1.22as)

This can help fill the gap between t1.5 and 3. I like it.

--Advanced Spore Crawlers: +450 HP, +0.64ms, -0.46as, +2 Range

Again, this can play into mucky's idea of upgradable defenses.

--Adv Up.Bile Pit: Baneling nests will now spawn a baneling instantly at the cost of 0.5 supply and 25 Gas, (4 In Stock) (Cooldown Based)

Potentially useful...

--Adv Up.Excessive Gland Buildup: (Corruptor): +20-35 DmgVsArmored, +2 Range, +0.43ms

I personally think that there is already way too much + to X damage units in the game. I'd rather corruptors just have some kind of aoe and auto apply their debuff or something like that.

--Adv Up.Eroding Acids: (Roach): +10-25 DmgVsBiological, Reduces enemy armor by 4.0 + 0.5 Per Missile Upgraded.

Damage vs bio seems... redundant in this map? Protoss have like... 2 bio units?

--Adv Up.Oversighted Defenses: (Overseer): Increases the duration of Infestation by 4 seconds and deals 2.5 Dmg/sec for the Duration.

YEAH 2.5DMG/SEC SHITS GONNA GET WRECKED

--Adv Up.Live Again to Grow a New One: (Brood Lord): If a Unit is killed by the Brood-Lord's Impact damage, the Brood-Lord is healed for 25 HP.

I like it. Zerg could use some ways to regen health.

--Adv Up.Sneaky Butter: (Baneling): Allows banelings to cloak for 5 Seconds. (Banelings have 30 Energy)

SNEAKY BUTTER

--Adv Up.Frenzied Regeneration: (Defensive Structures): Grants a 8% Lifestealing effect upon Zerg Structures that deal damage to enemies.

I like this too.

Now review these, and make your assumptions, these are the easiest things to do in the dreadful SC2 Editor, but they are possible and may enhance the zerg playstyle perhaps making zerg live longer and win a game?


I have a lot of things I'd like to see Zerg have. Something like hp regen on creep, removing creep speed bonus, and raising the overall speed of most zerg ground units in turn.
Image~[Gameproc]~Image
Warning: dialogue contains politically incorrect content. Viewer rearsore may occur.

User avatar

Vetraeus
Terran Goliath Dome Polisher
Terran Goliath Dome Polisher
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:21 pm
Location: South Carolina: Underwater
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Vetraeus » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:20 pm

Great, just watched a 2v2 where a Zerg player massed Overseers and chain infested a guys base preventing him from doing anything while his buddy got owned by the other players voidrays in an Air-To-Air confrontation; about 30 mutas vs 20+ VRs and the Mutas got raped. Tis Sad.
Do not argue with an idiot; He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

User avatar

Dtox
Terran SCV Lube Technician
Terran SCV Lube Technician
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:54 pm
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Dtox » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:59 pm

Hey ricky, i was wondering something about the scourge for W&M.....

what if instead of the scourge being similar to its sc1 counterpart (you know, being that sc2 has smart AI and the scourge really screws things up en masse), it could be more like a missile?

like make it semi expensive, and somewhat hard to mass, but make it a really heavy hitting monster, with splash perhaps.

just a bunker buster in the form of an air unit. itd still be an air killer, but you wouldnt be able to mass it in huge amounts and just mow everything down.

of course someone whos left alone could mass these in large amounts and doom just about any air force, but then again they wouldnt have much left to buy a new army with.

just throwing the idea out there :)
herpin mah derp like yeah

User avatar

Vetraeus
Terran Goliath Dome Polisher
Terran Goliath Dome Polisher
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:21 pm
Location: South Carolina: Underwater
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Vetraeus » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:42 am

The original SC2 Scourge Idea was mapped at 210 Dmg, 25% splash, but blizz nerfed it to make the campaign easier for newbs. Of course if you change it back to that, make them cost a hefty 6 Food and 500 + Min, 500+ gas.
Do not argue with an idiot; He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

User avatar

Ricky_Honejasi
Xel'naga Solar Moderator
Xel'naga Solar Moderator
Posts: 2023
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:50 pm
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:27 pm

I am reading the thread but I am not saying much. Essentially since I am not sure about some things, others I might prefer to think about, etc. Finally, it does take a lot of time to answer all of them in details (on top of replies back and so forth) when I would rather just implement more with the same time overall.

As for scourge, it's one of my uncertain things. Personally, I would rather make them back to 110 damage but nerf the combo AoE to 10-20% (from 12.5% - 25%) to actually give a reason to train normal scourges but it seems even 110 damage is supposedly overpowered to some others ... and that's not saying about any of the suggestions.

User avatar

IskatuMesk
Xel'naga World Shaper
Xel'naga World Shaper
Posts: 8776
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:40 pm
Location: M͈̙̞͍͞ͅE̹H̨͇̰͈͕͇̫Ì̩̳CO̼̩̤͖͘
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby IskatuMesk » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:56 am

An important detail is that all defense-related upgrades except for perhaps the warlord defender ones should be researchable by warlords in addition to the full 6/6 upgrades.
Image~[Gameproc]~Image
Warning: dialogue contains politically incorrect content. Viewer rearsore may occur.

User avatar

Lavarinth
Xel'naga Administrator
Xel'naga Administrator
Posts: 6579
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:21 pm
Location: His Ashworld Planet
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Lavarinth » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:15 pm

This is true.. With all the various available units, it negates the defenses intended for standard units. Although upgrading defenses will also make them more powerful against standard units, it's clear late-game involves more than just basics.
- - Lavarinth
Campaign Creations Administrator

User avatar

Vetraeus
Terran Goliath Dome Polisher
Terran Goliath Dome Polisher
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:21 pm
Location: South Carolina: Underwater
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Vetraeus » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:17 pm

I believe in the concept of Merchants being unable to fully control the game, as a Merchant can decide: "I'm only going to make Protoss upgrades!" and screw over other players in the game who are Zerg & Terran. Personally I believe that Warlords should be able to buy 6/6 Upgrades but at the cost of a much greater exchange of money, and the game needs a Trading post concept, that way you can trade Minerals for Gas and Gas for minerals helping you prolong survival and perhaps live longer. As for the "Race/Unit" specific upgrades, Keep them to Adv. Merchant and simply if needed provide another structure from which to gain those upgrades from if you get to many. I also believe that Zerg static defenses are much weaker than any of the other race's defenses, I've played a couple PUB games and from my experience they believe the Zerg Defenses Upg is pretty weak and does not benefit zerg at much, side from mass Thors/Tanks, Voidray/Dragoon, or Mass Air. That with, the Warlord's defender they find is too: "Weak" you might need to look into it, I personally think its fine especially with the upgs and all.
Do not argue with an idiot; He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

User avatar

IskatuMesk
Xel'naga World Shaper
Xel'naga World Shaper
Posts: 8776
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:40 pm
Location: M͈̙̞͍͞ͅE̹H̨͇̰͈͕͇̫Ì̩̳CO̼̩̤͖͘
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby IskatuMesk » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:17 pm

The defenses just can't compete with units. Their damage is terrible. That's basic units. Look how fast marauders mow through spine crawlers in vanilla.
Image~[Gameproc]~Image
Warning: dialogue contains politically incorrect content. Viewer rearsore may occur.

User avatar

Vetraeus
Terran Goliath Dome Polisher
Terran Goliath Dome Polisher
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:21 pm
Location: South Carolina: Underwater
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Vetraeus » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:33 am

Advanced defenses need to be put in play. Maybe some that would benefits buildings around them? Perhaps my idea of the "Reflector Shield" maybe improving it to affect buildings and increasing the armor bonus vs ranged it provides instead of 2, Maybe 6-8 and increasing the durability? Perhaps then the ideas of those buildings may come into play? Or a building that could offer nearby structures HP regen kind of like the terran up in campaign for mech units?

We can clarify that if Spinecrawlers did the original damage as stated before blizzard's Closed beta nerf, The 44-79 DmgVsArmored would be a better alternative? Maybe allowing terrans to build Sentry guns or Auto turrets...Protoss being able to place Xel'Naga Towers?
Do not argue with an idiot; He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

User avatar

IskatuMesk
Xel'naga World Shaper
Xel'naga World Shaper
Posts: 8776
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:40 pm
Location: M͈̙̞͍͞ͅE̹H̨͇̰͈͕͇̫Ì̩̳CO̼̩̤͖͘
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:16 am

Well, even if a tower does a lot of damage, with their current health they would only get 1-2 shots off at most in mid or late game. re: Planetary fortresses.
Image~[Gameproc]~Image
Warning: dialogue contains politically incorrect content. Viewer rearsore may occur.

User avatar

UntamedLoli
Protoss Infested Terran (Unemployed)
Protoss Infested Terran (Unemployed)
Posts: 838
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:36 pm
Location: Canada, BC
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby UntamedLoli » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:38 am

Vetraeus wrote:Advanced defenses need to be put in play. Maybe some that would benefits buildings around them? Perhaps my idea of the "Reflector Shield" maybe improving it to affect buildings and increasing the armor bonus vs ranged it provides instead of 2, Maybe 6-8 and increasing the durability? Perhaps then the ideas of those buildings may come into play? Or a building that could offer nearby structures HP regen kind of like the terran up in campaign for mech units?

We can clarify that if Spinecrawlers did the original damage as stated before blizzard's Closed beta nerf, The 44-79 DmgVsArmored would be a better alternative? Maybe allowing terrans to build Sentry guns or Auto turrets...Protoss being able to place Xel'Naga Towers?


Or we just stop convoluting the issue and just add defense morphs? It's already easy enough to mutilate pylons against protoss never a building that killing it first would make your defenses worthless.
Image
Image

User avatar

Vetraeus
Terran Goliath Dome Polisher
Terran Goliath Dome Polisher
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:21 pm
Location: South Carolina: Underwater
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Vetraeus » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:52 am

Morphs like...

Spore Crawler ---> Spore Cannon (Re: "Spore Cannon"
Spine Crawler ---> Sunken Colony ( 9 Range, +350 HP, Generates Creep, +2 Armor, +20 Dmg, Deals AoE Damage by 2x2
Photon Cannon ---> Dark Protoss Photon Cannon (No Longer relies on Pylon Power, +100 Shields, +25 Dmg
Bunker ---> Fortified Bunker (N/A)
Auto Turret ---> Flaming Betty (6 Range, +200 HP, +1 Armor, AoE Line/Hit Air
Sentry Gun ---> Perdition Turret (5 Range, +150 HP, +2 Armor, AoE Cone/Hit Air
Pylon ---> Dark Pylon (+50 HP/Shield, +1 Armor, +2 Energy Range, +1.2 Shield regen/sec AoE

etc?;

Or just screw around and add new crap, get a feel for it or do with Morphs?

If you want me to, I could make a few calculations and create a couple setup units for protoss that could be morphed?
Do not argue with an idiot; He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.


Return to “StarCraft II Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests