Warlords and Merchants Discussion

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Xenon
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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Xenon » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:20 pm

Here's something you can try for Dark Swarm, it's 3 "fog mist" models stacked on top of each other and tinted orange. In this map it replaces the Psionic storm effect. You should be able to copy the actor into your map and change the event references to the Dark Swarm persistent effect (at least I assume it uses one).
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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:33 pm

So I started to make some changes. I won't start to reply much this time since I tend to put too much time on responding and at this stage (already enough complaints to do something about), it won't help that much when I could poke into the map with that time instead.

So here's the latest changes I did so far:
1) Thors now gain +3 ground upgrades instead of +5 (accidental +5).
2) Thor's weapon speed nerfed from 1.28 to 1.48.
3) Flux Vanes and Charge Module (Adv.R) removed.
4) Goliaths gains +1 range vs Air. Total of 10 with Charon Boosters.
5) Diamondbacks about 15% smaller radius-wise.
6) Ravens now have normal costs again.
7) Ship Weapons now grant +1 damage to Auto-Turrets.
8) Scouts now gain +1(+1 vs Armored) per air upgrade instead of +1(+0).
9) Scouts now start with 8(+8) instead of 7(+7) damage per air shot (x2).
10) Siege Cruiser's Siege Barrage no longer require vision (thus can "blind fire" at 13 range of distance).

Btw, a quick thanks to HKS about the +5 for Thors. I really didn't notice it and I wonder if it's damn data meshing from melee + campaign dependencies that caused it or something. Still managed to solve it at least.

EDIT : I need to not forget about putting Lv4-6 to a 1/3/5 adv.R. requirement.

EDIT 2 : Btw Quantum, ill consider about putting that Dark Swarm model in. :p

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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:06 pm

Also since a major issue is about Combo units, here's the current ideas I have for new Combo units that I do want opinions (before I waste time if it's "doomed to be a failure") :

**Note : I tend to put lower combo requirements or more powerful stuff overall than I used to**

ATS Laser Wraiths (req 2 Combo)
Have Battlecruiser's ATS weapon instead of its Ground Lasers.

Mini-Yamato Wraiths (req 3-4 Combo)
Have Battlecruiser's ATS weapon + Mini-Yamato (costs 100 energy for 100 damage)

Marauder Bat (req 1 Combo)
Have Firebat's flames for melee targets.

Marauder MarineBat (req 2-3 Combo)
Have Firebat's flames for melee targets + Gauss Rifle as anti-air.

Phantom Medic (req 2 Combo)
Permanent Cloak

Digging Lurkers (req 2 or 3)
Can burrow-move.

Strafing Lurkers (req 4-5)
Can burrow-move + attack on the move.

And yes, I am still lacking a lot of ideas for Combo units in general. I intend to post Vet's ideas (sent to me via Youtube PMs) at some point after this post.

***Elite unit***

Pokelot (based on Zealot)
Costs only minerals
10 shields, 10 life
Insanely quick attack speed (somewhere between 0.06 and 0.20)
Hits for 1-2 damage per hit (Fully ignore armor)
Gains minimal bonus weapon upgrades (like +0.1 or +0.2)
Poke Immortal shields : 1 max damage to shields.
Probably will be able to use Zealot Charge.

While it would be countered by many types of units/spells (marines, storm, fungal growth, EMP, irradiate, etc.), it could end up being key units against other types of units that are powerful but doesn't hit too often.

Yes, some could consider it a gimmick unit although I am trying to have any creativity there.

***Elite unit***

Also, I still had no ideas about the Leviathan (didn't want it to be just a plain buffed and glorified air unit) until Mucky gave me the ideas just now ...

If all goes well, it will be the Grand Moustache Lord :
- Spawn moustaches as normal attack.
- Can spawn extra moustaches with a side ability (perhaps able to keep up to 10-15 or something).
- Spawn 50 moustaches on unit's death.
- Those moustaches will probably have 2-3x more timed life than broodlings.
- Those moustaches might be aerial and/or ground. We will see.
Final results can end up being very different.

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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Mucky » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:21 am

Ricky_Honejasi wrote:ATS Laser Wraiths (req 2 Combo)
Have Battlecruiser's ATS weapon instead of its Ground Lasers.

Sounds good.

Mini-Yamato Wraiths (req 3-4 Combo)
Have Battlecruiser's ATS weapon + Mini-Yamato (costs 100 energy for 100 damage)

Sounds not as good. Spells conflict with Wraith's cloaking, which is one of the main appeals of using Wraiths in lieu of Vikings.

Marauder Bat (req 1 Combo)
Have Firebat's flames for melee targets.

Marauder MarineBat (req 2-3 Combo)
Have Firebat's flames for melee targets + Gauss Rifle as anti-air.

I would implement only the latter one to avoid clutter. I'd also try giving them dual Gauss rifles, since I'm expecting these to be 2-3 supply units. Name seems kind of messy, although I'm not sure how to make it better.

I'd recommend using the Devil Dog or Hammer Securities model.

Phantom Medic (req 2 Combo)
Permanent Cloak

Not seeing the purpose here.

Digging Lurkers (req 2 or 3)
Can burrow-move.

Meh. Burrow-move might have been valuable on Lurkers if they took 9 years to burrow like they did in BW. As they are right now, a combo Lurker seems kind of redundant.

Strafing Lurkers (req 4-5)
Can burrow-move + attack on the move.

See above.

Pokelot (based on Zealot)
Costs only minerals
10 shields, 10 life
Insanely quick attack speed (somewhere between 0.06 and 0.20)
Hits for 1-2 damage per hit (Fully ignore armor)
Gains minimal bonus weapon upgrades (like +0.1 or +0.2)
Poke Immortal shields : 1 max damage to shields.
Probably will be able to use Zealot Charge.

While it would be countered by many types of units/spells (marines, storm, fungal growth, EMP, irradiate, etc.), it could end up being key units against other types of units that are powerful but doesn't hit too often.

Yes, some could consider it a gimmick unit although I am trying to have any creativity there.

Um... not sure what to think of this. Judging from its stats and abilities, it could either be ridiculously powerful or simply useless.

Also, I still had no ideas about the Leviathan (didn't want it to be just a plain buffed and glorified air unit) until Mucky gave me the ideas just now ...

If all goes well, it will be the Grand Moustache Lord :
- Spawn moustaches as normal attack.
- Can spawn extra moustaches with a side ability (perhaps able to keep up to 10-15 or something).
- Spawn 50 moustaches on unit's death.
- Those moustaches will probably have 2-3x more timed life than broodlings.
- Those moustaches might be aerial and/or ground. We will see.
Final results can end up being very different.

Don't forget TENTACLES.

Some unit ideas I've had:

Giant Baneling (elite maybe?)
500 minerals, 250 gas, 6 supply
Biological - Massive
500 HP
3 base armor
Weapon: Giant Suicide
Deals 250 damage to all units (500 to buildings) in a significant area.

Fenrir (definitely elite)
Uses the mercenary Viking model, scaled up to around the Thor's size
1000 minerals, 500 gas, 16-18 supply
Armored - Mechanical - Massive
1000-1250 HP
3-4 base armor
1.88 movespeed
Weapon (Ground Form): Dual Storm Cannons
Intended to have a very fast attack rate (0.15) while dealing moderate damage per attack (15 base)
Weapon (Air Form): Multi-Lanzer Torpedos
Same attack as regular Vikings, only they attack faster. Or launch more missiles per volley. Or something.

While in the air, the Fenrir would have access to a special ability, as of yet unnamed. After targeting a specific unit, the Fenrir will charge up for 3 seconds and then start dealing continuous line damage on the targeted unit. All enemy units inside the line AoE will take damage. The spell will last until either the targeted unit dies, flies out of range, or 300 damage has been dealt. Only air units are affected by this ability.

The main purpose of this unit would be to counter large stacks of air units, i.e. Void Rays. On the ground, it would basically be a glorified Thor.

AA Hellion
Not a new unit, but I'd like to see its AA flamethrowers replaced with single-targeting missiles of some sort.

Bunker BC
Since units inside the BC are killed when the BC dies, it would be nice if the loaded units added their life/shields onto the BC. A Thor inside a Bunker BC would add 400 HP in addition to the Thor's weapons, three Dragoons would add 300 HP and 240 shields, and 6 Marines would add 330 HP.

That's it for now.

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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Lavarinth » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:13 am

Mucky will you fix your avatar already?
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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:03 am

These changes are in the right direction. Good.

Every time I give you unit ideas you never want to add them. Here, I'll make it easy. I want this (or a modified stat-wise version of this). Look at the map to figure out independent turrets, too.

Image

http://static.sc2mapster.com/content/at ... OSP.SC2Map

Be careful with spawning stuff like 50 mustaches on death. That will murder game performance for sure, especially for poor Q. Think about Q, man.
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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Xenon » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:50 am

Corrosive Hydralisk
In addition to its regular weapon it has the Devourer weapon, without linked cooldown so it can use both of them. The attack should have the same range and be affected by the same range upgrades. Maybe the weapon could also attack ground and structures, but only add the buff to the target while attacking ground (and splash when attacking air as usual). Fires spikes at up to 5 units when it dies.

Mesk> Which Q are we talking about here?

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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby UntamedLoli » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:32 am

The one that doesn't play SC2 obviously.
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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Lavarinth » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:45 pm

I believe he meant between Quirriff and X, I'm just going to call you X from now on.

That Zeus is an amazing example of overlaying units together.. The maps with the huge battlecruisers were never too impressive to me in regards to the turrets, and Blizzard's example looked like it took all but five minutes with that Ultralisk using a billion tentacles.
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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:23 pm

Btw Xenon, I tried Dark Swarm although it does have one fatal flaw : if a player's specific setting is too low, it doesn't show Dark Swarm at all.

Right now, the changes stands like these :

1) Khaydarin Amulet available again.
2) Hydralisks changed to SC1 ideology. (as in 75/25 costs, 1 supply, tier 1.5, 15% smaller, etc.)
3) Elite Unit - Zeus O.P.S. was added.

4) Thors considerably nerfed.
5) Flux Vanes and Charge Module (Adv.R) removed.
6) Goliaths gains +1 range vs Air. Total of 10 with Charon Boosters.
7) Diamondbacks about 15% smaller radius-wise.
8) Ravens now have normal costs again.
9) Ship Weapons now grant +1 damage to Auto-Turrets.
10) Scouts now gain +1(+1 vs Armored) per air upgrade instead of +1(+0).
11) Scouts now start with 8(+8) instead of 7(+7) damage per air shot (x2).
12) Siege Cruiser's Siege Barrage no longer require vision.

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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:57 pm

Latest Extras :
- Level 4-6 techs now require 1/3/5 Adv.Research Merchant.
- Research Speed Boost for Adv.Research now gives +10%/level instead of 5% (can reach +50% instead of +25%)

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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Vetraeus » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:55 pm

Remember Ricky, "redundant units" = BAD
Do not argue with an idiot; He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:30 pm

And so ... here's Vetraeus' ideas that he sent me via PMs that ill copy-paste and feel free to tell what you think about them. :

Heavy Battlecruiser: Battlecruiser with Wraith Projectile and 25Dmg and Missile Turret AA attack, +50HP (Make Wraith proj have 2.5sec CD)

Greater Hydralisk: 2.23ms, 8-15 DmgVsArmor, +50HP

Heavy Carrier: +25 Intercept HP, Mothership Offensive Attack Weapon, +125 Shield, +50 HP.

Gauss Reaper: +25 HP, +10 DmgVsArmored, +0.26ms

Spirelisk: (Large Mutalisk) +50 HP, +10 Dmg, +0.8ms, +1 Bounce

Stormreaver: (Archon) +PsiStorm, +150 Shield = 500 Total, +7 Dmg, +1 Range, (75 Energy) -1 Psi storm], +0.56ms

Exploding Gopher: +50 HP, +0.86ms, +30 DmgVsArmored, +15 Immortal Shields

Tankling: (Large Zergling) +200 HP, -1.68ms, +13Dmg, -0.44as, +Charge, +Stimpack, +2 Armor, +1.5 Scaled Increased Size (2x3Collision)

Spirelord: (Giant Brood Lord) -0.85% Broodling Spawn Time, +100 HP, +1 Armor, +5.0 Broodling Duration, +3 Broodling Impact Dmg, +2 Broodling Dmg, +1 Range

Stormtrooper: (Marine) +25 HP, +BenefitCom Shield, +Stimpack, +1 Range, +4 Dmg.

Strangeler: (SpineCrawler) +3 Attacks, +1 DmgVsArmored, +2 Range, +200 HP, +1 Armor, -0.24as

Empowered Phoenix: (Phoenix) 100 Immortal Shields, +Immortal Attack Vs Ground, +1 AA Range, +7 Dmg (AA), -0.26as, +0.46ms, +50 HP

Tactical Zealot: (Zealot) +Ghost Cloak, -25 HP, +13DmgVsBiological, +2 Attacks, 2.6as, -0.86ms

Grand Scourge: (Scourge) +10HP, +100Dmg, +0.99ms, +1 Armor

Fireguard: (Hellion) +1 Range, +AA Hellion Attack, +13 DmgVsLight, +35HP, -0.32ms, -0.17as

Field Dropship: (Non-Stealth Spec op Dropship) +Photon Cannon Attack, 250HP, 12 Load capacity, +0.49ms, +2 Armor, -10Dmg

Strategic Bomber: (Banshee) +Planetary Fortress Attack [Benefit Upg Adv.], +Ability to Call in Nuke (Like Ghost), -No Cloak, +200 HP, -0.77ms, 2.8as, +2 Armor (Armored).

Gauss Tank: (Siege Breaker) - Diamondback Projectile; 45-90VsArmored, 250HP, 1.26ms, (Un-siege-able), 3.48as, 7 Range.

Light Tank: (SiegeTank) -Benefits from Zerg Upgrades]: 4 Range, 125HP, 2.86ms, 0.22as, Hydralisk Projectile, 1-BaseDmg, 7 Max.

Dragonlisk: (Mutalisk -Large-2x2) 560HP, 2 Armor, Roach Projectile, 40-80DmgVsMechanical, 1.67ms, 3.48as, 5 Range.

Hiveling: (Broodling): 25HP, 5Dmg Melee, 0.56as, 3.22ms.

Preserver: (Preserver): Plasma Blast AtSpell(Maar)>: 125Shield, 50HP, 3-7DmgVsBiological, 8 Range, 1.46as, 2.01ms.

Butterling: (Zergling): Baneling Explosion Behavior Upon Death, 2-2DmgVsArmored -Melee-, 25HP, 0.86as, 2.14ms.

Lunge-ling: (Baneling -Large-4x4): <Baneling with Scourge Behavior>, 100-150DmgVsArmored, 4.5 Range, 20HP, 5 Armor, (Only Hit Air), 1.02ms, AS(N/A)(Cast Time Delay 0.8sec)

Elite Zealot: (Dark Protoss Zealot): 50 Immortal Shields, 150HP, 50 Energy, 20-45DmgVsLight -1- Attack, (Benefits from Charge/Cloak), 2.65as, 1.22ms.

While I did consider them although at times, it does feel like too random to me at times or maybe it might make them just a bit too much "unique" for combo units.

In my logic, if a unit is a bit too unique it should be a Elite unit instead since Combo units should be more "upgraded basic units that got the 'obvious' improvement or two to make it very good yet obvious from its base name".

So it's more in case that somehow I am too much in the "wrong" or something about Combo units. Although, I am wondering if the main cause might be just a too high cost for combo units in fear that normal units (thus C&F) because useless.

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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:25 pm

A quick note : Reapers now cost 30 gas. With the changes below, Combo Reapers also cost 30 gas except for Phantom at 40.

So following my last thoughts, I decided to make most Combo units' cost pretty much exactly the same to the non-combo unit's base cost (except for some exceptions where they would be clearly overpowered). Most tiers would cost the same with a Combo Merchant level allowing pretty much just better. For example, the combo Bunker BC would still cost 400/300. Some units that costed gas (ex : Combo Marines, Warp Zealots) no longer cost gas.

It might make the current combo units of a same series feel more "redundant" from tier to tier but at least the Combo Merchant have costs that justify more players to buy the different units in the long run.

For example, it could happen often that people would favor C&F units in early game if the increased costs of a Combo unit didn't feel justified (which was often a +25/50 gas when the C&F had a -10 gas bonus creating a +35/+60 difference). Then in late game, Elite units (except for a few key standard units) would be greatly favored over Combo units.

Speaking in vaguely relative costs (and ignoring a +30% sell), do you prefer to pay normal BCs for 60% relative cost, "combo maxed" BCs for 140% or an Odin for 400%? Normal BCs or an Odin would make sense cost-wise but not the Combo BC. Thus in short, the costs for Combo units became much closer to a 100-110%.

Note, it's important to mention that I am NOT plain sticking to my Combo unit dumbly and simply. I am much more considering on less combo units (tier-wise per base unit) but better ones.

However, there's a few important points :
- Combo was still probably overpriced even with my latest price cuts way back then.
- Ill probably take a considerable amount of time to get any new real batch of Combo units out (Editor screwups/time wasting, homework taking time, not finding good ideas, etc.) thus that's the closest "fix" I can do for Combo units in the very short term.
- Since the metagame is considered stagnant for a long time, I really don't see how lower prices on combo units would hurt in the worst case scenario. We will probably see a few more units moving around at least.

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Re: FFS Event Info and Replays

Postby IskatuMesk » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:23 pm

Basic scourge are overpowered enough, we lowered their damage because of that remember? This is because they cannot overkill.

At least half of these units are either redundant or could just simply replace existing combo units like Stormtrooper replacing the (frankly useless) regeneration marine.
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