Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby Chriso » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:05 am

johnnythewolf wrote:Funny how you mention BioShock's plot, considering that overrated pretentious Ayn Rand fanfic features not only about everything you guys hate about WoL's plot (no character development, goofy stereotypical characters, hammy voice-acting, poorly-told story, bigger bad guy with a totally convoluted scheme) but also some of the most overused gaming tropes of all time (mute protagonist, yet another would-be utopia that has gone wrong, retarded monsters hiding in closets, and so on).


I am Andrew Ryan... and I am here to ask you a question.

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

'No,' says the man in Washington -- It belongs to the poor.

'No.' says the man in the Vatican -- it belongs to God.

'No!' says the man in Moscow -- it belongs to everyone.

I... rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different.

I chose the impossible...

I chose...

Rapture.

I built a city where the artist would not fear the censor -- where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality -- WHERE THE GREAT would not be constrained by the small.

And with the sweat of your brow... Rapture can become your city as well.

"The lighthouse is all lit up like hellfire. Seems like some kind of plane-crash..."

Sorry, couldn't resist myself.
Image
#steehlrain

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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby DrumsofWar » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:18 am

When Raynor tried to rescue her in the original campaign, she basically said that she liked who she was now. They never really say if she was brainwashed or not, but that makes her work as a character.

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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby Lavarinth » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:12 pm

I don't believe she was brainwashed by the Zerg, mostly on the basis that she would call him "Jimmy" as an infested, toying with his emotions.
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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby johnnythewolf » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:50 pm

But then again, if she is indeed not brainwashed, then how do you explain her becoming a cruel and violent mass-murderer? I mean, the original Sarah Kerrigan wasn't exactly innocent, sure, but she fought for a noble cause and had no beef with the Protoss. Heck, she was even against using the Zerg as a weapon.

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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby Lavarinth » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:35 pm

Take what you're given to you, would perhaps be a possible mindset. Like DoW said, she preferred the new feel and look, so why not use it? She harbored anger for not being saved, so she may have just gone a bit nuts and said "kill all Terrans! Kill all Protoss!"

And she did, after all, give the UED a few minutes to run before she chased after them ;)
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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby Thalraxal » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:24 pm

Kerrigan went through a lot shit of before being Infested. The Confederate Ghost program was not nice, and the guy who saved her from that just backstabbed her and left her to die (Go Mengsk!). Yeah, I can see her having just a little bit of pent up rage, and she now found herself in a situation were she was both free to express that anger and hate, and even encouraged to do so.

My impression that in SC1 was 100% Kerrigan all the time. The fact that the Overmind seemed content to let her persue her own ambitions (which would seem hypocritical if her ambitions were simply the ones he'd programmed into her) and that she was able to choose to let Jim live (why would the Overmind have left any lingering feelings for Jim if she'd been brainwashed anyway? Seems counter-intuitive for his purposes). Kerrigan was a character who was contiuously under someone else's control. First the Confederacy, then Mengsk. Ironically, the Overmind was probably her only master who actually valued her, gave her the most freedom and didn't see her as a simple tool. She was at the mercy of fate and suddenly found herself in a position where she could carve out her own destiny. I think it was an easy choice for her. Why would she want to go back to humanity when they've clearly proven themselves to be the real monsters, with a few notable exceptions?

Of course, SC2 Kerrigan has probably been retconned into having been Brainwashed and Crazy, so all the above is a moot point. Oh, well.


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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby johnnythewolf » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:49 pm

Thalraxal wrote:Kerrigan went through a lot shit of before being Infested. The Confederate Ghost program was not nice, and the guy who saved her from that just backstabbed her and left her to die (Go Mengsk!). Yeah, I can see her having just a little bit of pent up rage, and she now found herself in a situation were she was both free to express that anger and hate, and even encouraged to do so.


Although I do like your interpretation, I doubt Kerrigan had always been herself the whole time, as the changes in character are just too drastic to be believable. From the humble and altruistic being she was as a human, she switched to being an arrogant and selfish psychopath. And it's rather apparent that, following her infestation, she started taking pleasure in doing the things she hated the most, specifically mass-murdering. That's actually even *worse* than what Mengsk did, and she clearly despised him for that. You'd think that, had she kept being herself, she would have refused to take part in the genocide of a species she had previously no beef with just like that, and instead would have joined forces with Raynor to get revenge on Mengsk for what he did to her.

I can see why Blizzard chose to have her brainwashed (providing of course that this *is* indeed a retcon); having her retain her free will as the Queen of Blades basically makes the character as weak-willed and hypocritical as Hayden Christensen's Anakin Skywalker!

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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby Thalraxal » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:11 pm

johnnythewolf wrote:
Thalraxal wrote:Kerrigan went through a lot shit of before being Infested. The Confederate Ghost program was not nice, and the guy who saved her from that just backstabbed her and left her to die (Go Mengsk!). Yeah, I can see her having just a little bit of pent up rage, and she now found herself in a situation were she was both free to express that anger and hate, and even encouraged to do so.


Although I do like your interpretation, I doubt Kerrigan had always been herself the whole time, as the changes in character are just too drastic to be believable. From the humble and altruistic being she was as a human, she switched to being an arrogant and selfish bitch. And it's rather apparent that, following her infestation, she started taking pleasure in mass-murdering and obeying a giant eye hellbent on exterminating all sentient life.

That's actually even *worse* than what Mengsk did, and she clearly despised him for that. You'd think that, had she remained herself, she would have refused to serve the Overmind and instead joined forces with Raynor to get revenge on Mengsk for what he did to her; she wouldn't have accepted to take part in the genocide of a species she had previously no beef with just like that.

I can see why Blizzard chose to have her brainwashed (providing of course that this *is* indeed a retcon); having her retain her free will as the Queen of Blades basically makes the character as weak-willed and hypocritical as Hayden Christensen's Anakin Skywalker!


The Overmind was never hellbent on exterminating all sentient life. It was hellbent on assimilating the Protoss and achieving perfection. Certainly, it killed a lot of people on its way to achieving that goal, and we can only speculate at what it would have done had it achieved that, but the point still stands.

Kerrigan at the time of her rebirth into the Swarm, would have just discovered that 1) The Zerg were not the mindless monsters that she'd previously believed then to be and 2) One of the people she trusted the most, and believed in (she did take up his cause as her own), had just betrayed her, left her to die and proven himself to be a fanatical jerk (Go Mengsk! Actually, it probably took her a while to come to terms with Mengsk's betrayal, she did still reach out to him during her assimilation into the Swarm, which was why he sent General Duke to Char in the first place). I think her faith in humanity was pretty much gone by that point, and I don't think she had too much trouble letting go of what was left of her own humanity. She'd experienced the worstHumanity could offer (the Ghost Program and Mengsk being a jerk), while the worst the Zerg could do was actually a positive experience for her. I think she came to see the Zerg as the heroes, and the Terrans as monsters who wanted to control and enslave everything (with a few possible exceptions such as Jim, who she keeps on letting live for some inexplicable reason).

And don't forget, her job, both for the Confederacy and the Sons of Korhal, was murdering people. While she wasn't necessarily a terrible person as a human, it's pretty clear that she left her conscience behind a long time ago (that's what the Ghost Program was for!). Now that she's no longer just an assassin, but in charge of a powerful army, she's just doing the same thing she was doing before, just on a larger scale. Besides, she never did take part in the Invasion of Auir. Despite being the secret weapon the Zerg needed to fight the Protoss, the Overmind didn't bring her with it.

As for her leadership style, she's pretty much just emulating the leaders she's served under, Mengsk and the Confederates, so I can't really blame her for being an arrogant, selfish bitch once she's the one in charge for a change. She learned from people who were far more arrogant, selfish and bitchier than she's ever been. The only difference is that she's got substantially more power than they ever did.

Running off with Jim was never really an option though. The Overmind does have the power to control any member of the Swarm, but it seems that it rarely actually invokes that power (Look at all the backtalk it gets from Zasz). But more importantly, Kerrigan does have a sense of loyalty, even if those around her don't. That's why she was so willing to work with Mengsk after he'd saved her from the Confederacy. The Zerg saved her too, both from dying at New Gettysberg and from Mengsk (she'd outgrown her usefulness, and was too dangerous to let live. That betrayal was inevitable). She would have felt a debt to the Zerg, and stuck around regardless. The big difference here though is that the Overmind was, again, her first and only master to actually give her the same loyalty in return.

I can also see why Blizzard chose to have her brainwashed too though, it makes "redeeming" her easier for them to do, which was something I don't think they intended for her to do while writing Brood War.


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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby johnnythewolf » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:31 pm

Thalraxal wrote:The Overmind was never hellbent on exterminating all sentient life. It was hellbent on assimilating the Protoss and achieving perfection. Certainly, it killed a lot of people on its way to achieving that goal, and we can only speculate at what it would have done had it achieved that, but the point still stands.


From Shadow Hunters (SC1 Protoss 9):

So you see my friends, we fight not
only to save Aiur, but all creation! If
we fall to the Zerg then the
Overmind will run rampant
throughout the stars, consuming all
sentience-all life. It is up to us to
put and end to this madness, once
and for all.


Besides, I doubt the Overmind would have just settled down after "assimilating" the Protoss.

Kerrigan at the time of her rebirth into the Swarm, would have just discovered that 1) The Zerg were not the mindless monsters that she'd previously believed then to be and 2) One of the people she trusted the most, and believed in (she did take up his cause as her own), had just betrayed her, left her to die and proven himself to be a fanatical jerk (Go Mengsk! Actually, it probably took her a while to come to terms with Mengsk's betrayal, she did still reach out to him during her assimilation into the Swarm, which was why he sent General Duke to Char in the first place). I think her faith in humanity was pretty much gone by that point, and I don't think she had too much trouble letting go of what was left of her own humanity. She'd experienced the worst Humanity could offer (the Ghost Program and Mengsk being a jerk), while the worst the Zerg could do was actually a positive experience for her. I think she came to see the Zerg as the heroes, and the Terrans as monsters who wanted to control and enslave everything (with a few possible exceptions such as Jim, who she keeps on letting live for some inexplicable reason).


But she also experienced the best Humanity could offer from Raynor and probably all the colonists and other innocent people she helped protecting.

I doubt her perception of the Zergs changed, as she doesn't even muse about it. From the minute she was reborn she always behaved like some evil henchman, never second-guessing her superiors (well, except Zasz) or her role as an agent of the Swarm. Taking that into consideration, I'm not even sure why she refused to serve under Daggoth or the new Overmind, as she didn't seem to have any beef with them.

Even in BW, she still seems to consider the Zergs as mere expandable tools to help her achieve her megalomaniacal ambitions. She didn't express any remorse over killing the UED-enslaved Zergs. In fact, she didn't seem to care about anything but her personal rise to power.

And don't forget, her job, both for the Confederacy and the Sons of Korhal, was murdering people. While she wasn't necessarily a terrible person as a human, it's pretty clear that she left her conscience behind a long time ago (that's what the Ghost Program was for!). Now that she's no longer just an assassin, but in charge of a powerful army, she's just doing the same thing she was doing before, just on a larger scale. Besides, she never did take part in the Invasion of Auir. Despite being the secret weapon the Zerg needed to fight the Protoss, the Overmind didn't bring her with it.


But there's a difference between killing a few specific people and indiscriminately butcher and infest a whole planet's population. It's pretty apparent that, by helping the Sons of Korhal, she sought to redeem herself for her actions as a Confederate ghost, and that she killed only for what she believed was the greater good.

True, she didn't take part in Aiur's invasion, but despite being well-aware of the Overmind's plans, she made no effort whatsoever to prevent a Tarsonis 2.0.

I can also see why Blizzard chose to have her brainwashed too though, it makes "redeeming" her easier for them to do, which was something I don't think they intended for her to do while writing Brood War.


They didn't intend her to be infested in the first place until late in SC1's production.

And considering how Blizzard basically painted themselves into a corner by turning the character into a trite and obnoxious character, I can't blame them for wanting to take her in a completely different direction.

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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby Thalraxal » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:47 pm

johnnythewolf wrote:
Thalraxal wrote:The Overmind was never hellbent on exterminating all sentient life. It was hellbent on assimilating the Protoss and achieving perfection. Certainly, it killed a lot of people on its way to achieving that goal, and we can only speculate at what it would have done had it achieved that, but the point still stands.


From Shadow Hunters (SC1 Protoss 9):

So you see my friends, we fight not
only to save Aiur, but all creation! If
we fall to the Zerg then the
Overmind will run rampant
throughout the stars, consuming all
sentience-all life. It is up to us to
put and end to this madness, once
and for all.


Besides, I doubt the Overmind would have just settled down after "assimilating" the Protoss.


That's Tassadar, who'd eventually go and crash a Carrier into the Overmind. I think that's a bit of a biased source right there, Johnny.

johnnythewolf wrote:
Kerrigan at the time of her rebirth into the Swarm, would have just discovered that 1) The Zerg were not the mindless monsters that she'd previously believed then to be and 2) One of the people she trusted the most, and believed in (she did take up his cause as her own), had just betrayed her, left her to die and proven himself to be a fanatical jerk (Go Mengsk! Actually, it probably took her a while to come to terms with Mengsk's betrayal, she did still reach out to him during her assimilation into the Swarm, which was why he sent General Duke to Char in the first place). I think her faith in humanity was pretty much gone by that point, and I don't think she had too much trouble letting go of what was left of her own humanity. She'd experienced the worst Humanity could offer (the Ghost Program and Mengsk being a jerk), while the worst the Zerg could do was actually a positive experience for her. I think she came to see the Zerg as the heroes, and the Terrans as monsters who wanted to control and enslave everything (with a few possible exceptions such as Jim, who she keeps on letting live for some inexplicable reason).


But she also experienced the best Humanity could offer from Raynor and probably all the colonists and other innocent people she helped protecting.

I doubt her perception of the Zergs changed, as she doesn't even muse about it. From the minute she was reborn she always behaved like some evil henchman, never second-guessing her superiors (well, except Zasz) or her role as an agent of the Swarm. Taking that into consideration, I'm not even sure why she refused to serve under Daggoth or the new Overmind, as she didn't seem to have any beef with them.

Even in BW, she still seems to consider the Zergs as mere expandable tools to help her achieve her megalomaniacal ambitions. She didn't express any remorse over killing the UED-enslaved Zergs. In fact, she didn't seem to care about anything but her personal rise to power.

She did spend a substantial period of time in crysalis before finally hatching, and presumably the Overmind spoke to her during that period, which is probably when she turned. Do remember, she was struggling at first during her assimilation: she was sending out calls for help to Jim and Mengsk intially. As for the Brood War, it's pretty clear that the Overmind didn't have much of a plan in the event of its own demise. Kerrigan owed loyalty to Overmind I, not Daggoth or Overmind II. Considering that she'd been screwed over by overone except for Jim and Overmind I, I can't say I blame her for deciding to take her fate into her own hands and become her own boss.

johnnythewolf wrote:
And don't forget, her job, both for the Confederacy and the Sons of Korhal, was murdering people. While she wasn't necessarily a terrible person as a human, it's pretty clear that she left her conscience behind a long time ago (that's what the Ghost Program was for!). Now that she's no longer just an assassin, but in charge of a powerful army, she's just doing the same thing she was doing before, just on a larger scale. Besides, she never did take part in the Invasion of Auir. Despite being the secret weapon the Zerg needed to fight the Protoss, the Overmind didn't bring her with it.


But there's a difference between killing a few specific people and indiscriminately butcher and infest a whole planet's population. It's pretty apparent that, by helping the Sons of Korhal, she sought to redeem herself for her actions as a Confederate ghost, and that she killed only for what she believed was the greater good.

Eh, I think she killed for Mengsk because she felt he was a better boss than the Confederates were. You're confusing how she did her job with actual morales. There's a difference.

johnnythewolf wrote:True, she didn't take part in Aiur's invasion, but despite being well-aware of the Overmind's plans, she made no effort whatsoever to prevent a Tarsonis 2.0.

By that logic, she should have left the Sons of Korhal immediately after Tarsonis 1.0, yet she still stuck around and was still winning to put her life on the line for Mengsk despite the fact that his true colours were showing. Kerrigan has a strong sense of loyalty to her superiours, no matter what they do.

johnnythewolf wrote:
I can also see why Blizzard chose to have her brainwashed too though, it makes "redeeming" her easier for them to do, which was something I don't think they intended for her to do while writing Brood War.


They didn't intend her to be infested in the first place until late in SC1's production.

Which has what to do with the writing of Brood War? The deed was done. If they wanted to set up a redemption plot, they wouldn't have made her the Queen Bitch of the Universe.

johnnythewolf wrote:And considering how Blizzard basically painted themselves into a corner by turning the character into a trite and obnoxious character, I can't blame them for wanting to take her in a completely different direction.

Meh, I see countless more interesting possibilities if they'd chosen to stick with the road they were going down already. Active opposition to the Hybrids, an actual redemption plot, or even (preferably) good old fashioned comeuppance! Anything would have been better than sufficiently advanced technological redemption.


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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby johnnythewolf » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:16 am

Thalraxal wrote:That's Tassadar, who'd eventually go and crash a Carrier into the Overmind. I think that's a bit of a biased source right there, Johnny.


He got his information from Zeratul, who had the opportunity to probe the Overmind's mind.

She did spend a substantial period of time in crysalis before finally hatching, and presumably the Overmind spoke to her during that period, which is probably when she turned. Do remember, she was struggling at first during her assimilation: she was sending out calls for help to Jim and Mengsk intially. As for the Brood War, it's pretty clear that the Overmind didn't have much of a plan in the event of its own demise. Kerrigan owed loyalty to Overmind I, not Daggoth or Overmind II. Considering that she'd been screwed over by overone except for Jim and Overmind I, I can't say I blame her for deciding to take her fate into her own hands and become her own boss.


Daggoth has always been good to her, just like the Overmind I. Why would she turn against him?

Eh, I think she killed for Mengsk because she felt he was a better boss than the Confederates were. You're confusing how she did her job with actual morales. There's a difference.


She started second-guessing him when he decided to use the Zergs against the Confederates. So morales are involved, alright.

By that logic, she should have left the Sons of Korhal immediately after Tarsonis 1.0, yet she still stuck around and was still winning to put her life on the line for Mengsk despite the fact that his true colours were showing. Kerrigan has a strong sense of loyalty to her superiours, no matter what they do.


She would have, as she was clearly mad at Arcturus for acting behind her back and once again relying upon the emitters:

What? The Confederates on Antiga were
bad enough, but now you're going to use
the Zerg against an entire planet? This is
insane.


But then, the Protoss showed up, taking everyone by surprise:

I heard. I'm going down there.
Arcturus knows what he's doing. I
can't back out on him now.

The Protoss are coming to destroy the entire planet, not
just the Zerg. I know that because ... well I just know
it. I am a Ghost, remember? Once we've dealt with
the Protoss, we can do something about the Zerg.
Arcturus will come around. I know he will.


She didn't go to New Gettysburg just because Arcturus asked, but to prevent the Protoss from glassing the entire planet! She obviously intended to confront Arcturus afterwards, and that's pretty much why Mengsk decided to abandon her to the Zergs.

Which has what to do with the writing of Brood War? The deed was done. If they wanted to set up a redemption plot, they wouldn't have made her the Queen Bitch of the Universe.


How does this prevent a redemption plot? At the time, they wanted to show that Kerrigan had been turned into an untamable force of nature, and that it would take more than old-fashioned good faith to bring her back, as she was clearly too far gone.

You can't blame Blizzard for wanting to save themselves ideas for sequels. Just because they don't meet your personal expectations doesn't mean they just retconned it.

Besides, Kerrigan being part of a "Prophecy" had already been hinted in the Queen of Blades novel, which was written with Blizzard's approval at least four years before WoL's release.

Meh, I see countless more interesting possibilities if they'd chosen to stick with the road they were going down already. Active opposition to the Hybrids, an actual redemption plot, or even (preferably) good old fashioned comeuppance! Anything would have been better than sufficiently advanced technological redemption.


Who said Kerrigan was completely redeemed thanks to the Artifact? As far as we know, she was only "deferalized". The last thing the good guys need is to get backstabbed again by the QoB when the Hybrids come. At least, now, they got her by the balls.

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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby Thalraxal » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:16 pm

johnnythewolf wrote:
Thalraxal wrote:That's Tassadar, who'd eventually go and crash a Carrier into the Overmind. I think that's a bit of a biased source right there, Johnny.


He got his information from Zeratul, who had the opportunity to probe the Overmind's mind.


Eh, again that's mere speculation on their side of things. It's logical extrapolation on their part, but it fails to take the Overmind's actual motives into account. He rampages because he wants the Swarm to become strong enough to defeat the Protoss, assimilate them and become Perfect. I don't think the Overmind gave any thought of what to do after achieving that perfection.

johnnythewolf wrote:
She did spend a substantial period of time in crysalis before finally hatching, and presumably the Overmind spoke to her during that period, which is probably when she turned. Do remember, she was struggling at first during her assimilation: she was sending out calls for help to Jim and Mengsk intially. As for the Brood War, it's pretty clear that the Overmind didn't have much of a plan in the event of its own demise. Kerrigan owed loyalty to Overmind I, not Daggoth or Overmind II. Considering that she'd been screwed over by overone except for Jim and Overmind I, I can't say I blame her for deciding to take her fate into her own hands and become her own boss.


Daggoth has always been good to her, just like the Overmind I. Why would she turn against him?


Blizzard, sadly, chose not to show us the Zerg-side of things in their own civil war, so the actual breakdown in relations between Kerrigan's Swarm and Daggoth's Swarm is something we never got to see. So we can only really speculate here. They'd been equals under Overmind I, so maybe Daggoth decided to change arrangement? Maybe she just didn't like the idea of entrusting her fate with a new, unknown creature. She hasn't exactly had the best of luck with her bosses, so I can't blame her for being a bit apprehensive about the whole thing. The fact it was prompty enslaved by the UED probably didn't help matters either.

johnnythewolf wrote:
Eh, I think she killed for Mengsk because she felt he was a better boss than the Confederates were. You're confusing how she did her job with actual morales. There's a difference.


She started second-guessing him when he decided to use the Zergs against the Confederates. So morales are involved, alright.


They were using technology they barely understood to lure aliens they did not have any active control over to where their enemies were. Which happened to be near their own location. While it worked well for them, every time they used the Psi Emitters, there was a high potential for something going terribly wrong. I think it had more to do with apprehension than morales. Plus unleashing alien occupiers on the planets you want to liberate from the Confederacy seems kind of counterproductive.

johnnythewolf wrote:
By that logic, she should have left the Sons of Korhal immediately after Tarsonis 1.0, yet she still stuck around and was still winning to put her life on the line for Mengsk despite the fact that his true colours were showing. Kerrigan has a strong sense of loyalty to her superiours, no matter what they do.


She would have, as she was clearly mad at Arcturus for acting behind her back and once again relying upon the emitters:

What? The Confederates on Antiga were
bad enough, but now you're going to use
the Zerg against an entire planet? This is
insane.


But then, the Protoss showed up, taking everyone by surprise:

I heard. I'm going down there.
Arcturus knows what he's doing. I
can't back out on him now.

The Protoss are coming to destroy the entire planet, not
just the Zerg. I know that because ... well I just know
it. I am a Ghost, remember? Once we've dealt with
the Protoss, we can do something about the Zerg.
Arcturus will come around. I know he will.


She didn't go to New Gettysburg just because Arcturus asked, but to prevent the Protoss from glassing the entire planet! She obviously intended to confront Arcturus afterwards, and that's pretty much why Mengsk decided to abandon her to the Zergs.


Which is ironic because the Protoss had no actual intention of glassing Tarsonis. Remember the whole "don't harm the Zerg" objective in the mission? You're not there to save Tarsonis from being glassed by the Protoss, you're there to save the Zerg from being massacred by the Protoss before they finish slaughtering the Confederates.

Kerrigan would not have left Mengsk, even after that. She was simply too loyal to him. Mengsk, on the other hand, was beginning to fall into his paranoid downward spiral, and had felt she'd outlived her usefulness at that point, probably wouldn't have recognized that fact.

johnnythewolf wrote:
Which has what to do with the writing of Brood War? The deed was done. If they wanted to set up a redemption plot, they wouldn't have made her the Queen Bitch of the Universe.


How does this prevent a redemption plot? At the time, they wanted to show that Kerrigan had been turned into an untamable force of nature, and that it would take more than old-fashioned good faith to bring her back, as she was clearly too far gone.


Uhm, one of the major points of Brood War was proving just how far gone Kerrigan is. Certainly, we still see some of her positive traits (she wasn't particularly happy about killing Duke and Fenix and slaughtering their forces, sparing Jim yet again, etc.), but considering it pushed Jim to the point of swearing revenge and promising that he'd be the one to kill her, yeah. Yeah, it is about Kerrigan reaching her point of no return.

They were clearly building up towards comeuppance at that point, rather than redemption. If they'd been building towards redemption, Jim would have been "I'll find a way to free you from the Zerg, I swear it!" or something, which would have led more logically into his mopiness in SC2. He don't know anythin' 'bout science.

johnnythewolf wrote:You can't blame Blizzard for wanting to save themselves ideas for sequels. Just because they don't meet your personal expectations doesn't mean they just retconned it.

Besides, Kerrigan being part of a "Prophecy" had already been hinted in the Queen of Blades novel, which was written with Blizzard's approval at least four years before WoL's release.


Queen of Blades is part of the SC2 canon, not the SC1 canon. It was written six years after SC1 with Blizzard's approval. It's part of the retcon, Johnny.

johnnythewolf wrote:
Meh, I see countless more interesting possibilities if they'd chosen to stick with the road they were going down already. Active opposition to the Hybrids, an actual redemption plot, or even (preferably) good old fashioned comeuppance! Anything would have been better than sufficiently advanced technological redemption.


Who said Kerrigan was completely redeemed thanks to the Artifact? As far as we know, she was only "deferalized". The last thing the good guys need is to get backstabbed again by the QoB when the Hybrids come. At least, now, they got her by the balls.


Remember when you played that last level and got that transmission from a vision of an uninfested Kerrigan? It's supposed to be a "hint" that there's still a "good" Kerrigan trapped inside the "evil" one who needs Jim to save her. I felt it was a little heavy handed, personally. Plus they setup that whole "Dark Voice" plot with the Overmind itself spending most of its existance under its influence. They kind of heavily implied that the "Dark Voice" has been influencing Kerrigan too.


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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby johnnythewolf » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:21 pm

Thalraxal wrote:
johnnythewolf wrote:He got his information from Zeratul, who had the opportunity to probe the Overmind's mind.


Eh, again that's mere speculation on their side of things. It's logical extrapolation on their part, but it fails to take the Overmind's actual motives into account. He rampages because he wants the Swarm to become strong enough to defeat the Protoss, assimilate them and become Perfect. I don't think the Overmind gave any thought of what to do after achieving that perfection.


Considering the Overmind's record, we can't blame Tassadar for making such an assumption.

They were using technology they barely understood to lure aliens they did not have any active control over to where their enemies were. Which happened to be near their own location. While it worked well for them, every time they used the Psi Emitters, there was a high potential for something going terribly wrong. I think it had more to do with apprehension than morales. Plus unleashing alien occupiers on the planets you want to liberate from the Confederacy seems kind of counterproductive.


Not exactly. Once the Confederates were all dead, they'd just have to lure the Swarm away with another emitter and claim the land. Think of what Europeans did to Indians using Smallpox, but way more extreme.

Which is ironic because the Protoss had no actual intention of glassing Tarsonis. Remember the whole "don't harm the Zerg" objective in the mission? You're not there to save Tarsonis from being glassed by the Protoss, you're there to save the Zerg from being massacred by the Protoss before they finish slaughtering the Confederates.


That's what Arcturus said, indeed. But when Raynor tried to convince Kerrigan not to do it, she explained how she, as a ghost, could read the Protoss's intentions. I doubt she was lying at that point. Also, I interpreted the part "Arcturus will come around, I know he will..." as her believing she would be able to successfully confront Mengsk about it once the Protoss had been dealt with.

As for the Protoss not wanting to glass the planet, well... that's a tricky one. "New Gettysburg" was a city on Tarsonis, yet the eponymous mission originally took place into space.

Keeping that in mind, I always assumed the Terrans battled the Protoss in orbit to prevent them from glassing the planet. Whether the space setting was simply intended as a symbolic representation of the struggle or that was just the result of time constraints and the game limitations, we shall never know. However, we have to assume that, had the SoK not intervened, Tassadar would have indeed purged the planet just like he did with Antiga, as it was pretty clear that his forces were clearly outnumbered (one expeditionary fleet against billions of Zergs).

Considering the Protoss force was defeated in orbit, it's safe to assume that either the Protoss lost their ability to glass the planet (as the force encountered in Zerg 2 is supposed to be remnants of the original expedition) or Tassadar ultimately decided not to glass the planet.

Kerrigan would not have left Mengsk, even after that. She was simply too loyal to him. Mengsk, on the other hand, was beginning to fall into his paranoid downward spiral, and had felt she'd outlived her usefulness at that point, probably wouldn't have recognized that fact.


I doubt she was really that loyal. She sticked with him because he rescued her and she believed in his cause, but I doubt she was that subordinate.

You could see how she progressively started second-guessing their mission after the SoK got their hands on the Psi-Emitters. Things would have certainly escalated even more after "New Gettysburg", had Mengsk not betrayed her.

Uhm, one of the major points of Brood War was proving just how far gone Kerrigan is. Certainly, we still see some of her positive traits (she wasn't particularly happy about killing Duke and Fenix and slaughtering their forces, sparing Jim yet again, etc.), but considering it pushed Jim to the point of swearing revenge and promising that he'd be the one to kill her, yeah. Yeah, it is about Kerrigan reaching her point of no return.


Wait, what? Are you being sarcastic there? Because she was actually more than happy to kill Duke:

General Duke. You know I always wanted to have you
killed. This is kind of exciting for me.


And she sardonically taunted Fenix before killing him.

You're right, Fenix. I used you to get the job done, and
you played along just like I knew you would. You Protoss
are all so headstrong and predictable, you are your own
worst enemies.

I took that lesson to heart, Praetor. Now, are you ready
to die a second time?

Then that shall be your epitaph.


They were clearly building up towards comeuppance at that point, rather than redemption. If they'd been building towards redemption, Jim would have been "I'll find a way to free you from the Zerg, I swear it!" or something, which would have led more logically into his mopiness in SC2. He don't know anythin' 'bout science.


Right. As if it would have made sense to say that, anyway. Like saying to an insane person who just murdered your pal: "Damn you! Mark my words: I shall find a way to make you sane again!"

Besides, in WoL, until Valerian showed up of course, Raynor seemed to have given up all hope of redeeming her, hence the mopiness. Well, that and his revolution going nowhere.

Queen of Blades is part of the SC2 canon, not the SC1 canon. It was written six years after SC1 with Blizzard's approval. It's part of the retcon, Johnny.


Why do you keep using the word "retcon", anyway? Because it just wasn't mentioned before?

Remember when you played that last level and got that transmission from a vision of an uninfested Kerrigan? It's supposed to be a "hint" that there's still a "good" Kerrigan trapped inside the "evil" one who needs Jim to save her. I felt it was a little heavy handed, personally. Plus they setup that whole "Dark Voice" plot with the Overmind itself spending most of its existance under its influence. They kind of heavily implied that the "Dark Voice" has been influencing Kerrigan too.


It's interesting to note that the last time Kerrigan reached telepathically to Raynor was when she was put in a chrysalis, which, we have to assume, was a rather traumatic experience.

Incidentally, in "All-In", Kerrigan is shown losing her composure and even panicking as the Artifact charges up. That was a first since her rebirth.

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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby Thalraxal » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:00 pm

johnnythewolf wrote:
Thalraxal wrote:
johnnythewolf wrote:He got his information from Zeratul, who had the opportunity to probe the Overmind's mind.


Eh, again that's mere speculation on their side of things. It's logical extrapolation on their part, but it fails to take the Overmind's actual motives into account. He rampages because he wants the Swarm to become strong enough to defeat the Protoss, assimilate them and become Perfect. I don't think the Overmind gave any thought of what to do after achieving that perfection.


Considering the Overmind's record, we can't blame Tassadar for making such an assumption.


Oh, totally. Besides, as a Protoss, the most important part of the Galaxy (Auir and the Protoss Empire) was exactly what he was rampaging over at the time.

johnnythewolf wrote:
They were using technology they barely understood to lure aliens they did not have any active control over to where their enemies were. Which happened to be near their own location. While it worked well for them, every time they used the Psi Emitters, there was a high potential for something going terribly wrong. I think it had more to do with apprehension than morales. Plus unleashing alien occupiers on the planets you want to liberate from the Confederacy seems kind of counterproductive.


Not exactly. Once the Confederates were all dead, they'd just have to lure the Swarm away with another emitter and claim the land. Think of what Europeans did to Indians using Smallpox, but way more extreme.


I don't think that's a good comparison at all. It's more like convincing the hostile, neighbouring civilization to invade your enemy's capital while plotting to take over the provinces and assuming that they won't come and clobber you while you're at it. Mengsk was playing with fire. They had no idea what the Zerg were or what they were capable of, and got burned as a result. I think Kerrigan was the first to realize just how dangerous those things were long before anyone else did.

johnnythewolf wrote:
Which is ironic because the Protoss had no actual intention of glassing Tarsonis. Remember the whole "don't harm the Zerg" objective in the mission? You're not there to save Tarsonis from being glassed by the Protoss, you're there to save the Zerg from being massacred by the Protoss before they finish slaughtering the Confederates.


That's what Arcturus said, indeed. But when Raynor tried to convince Kerrigan not to do it, she explained how she, as a ghost, could read the Protoss's intentions. I doubt she was lying at that point. Also, I interpreted the part "Arcturus will come around, I know he will..." as her believing she would be able to successfully confront Mengsk about it once the Protoss had been dealt with.

As for the Protoss not wanting to glass the planet, well... that's a tricky one. "New Gettysburg" was a city on Tarsonis, yet the eponymous mission originally took place into space.

Keeping that in mind, I always assumed the Terrans battled the Protoss in orbit to prevent them from glassing the planet. Whether the space setting was simply intended as a symbolic representation of the struggle or that was just the result of time constraints and the game limitations, we shall never know. However, we have to assume that, had the SoK not intervened, Tassadar would have indeed purged the planet just like he did with Antiga, as it was pretty clear that his forces were clearly outnumbered (one expeditionary fleet against billions of Zergs).

Considering the Protoss force was defeated in orbit, it's safe to assume that either the Protoss lost their ability to glass the planet (as the force encountered in Zerg 2 is supposed to be remnants of the original expedition) or Tassadar ultimately decided not to glass the planet.


New Gettysburg was always intended to be on the surface of Tarsonis, not in orbit. So it's not actually retcon. There's also a cut Terran mission (the original version of "The Big Push", actually) that also took place in New Gettysburg and is Badlands.

Tassadar had chosen to engage the Zerg directly in an effort to save Terrans, which ended up getting him relieved of his command by the Conclave (Protoss doctrine for dealing with the Zerg was "burn infested worlds. Spare no one."). That's why The Executor was appointed to replace Tassadar at the beginning of the Protoss campaign.

Chau Sara, Mar Sara and Antiga were all sparsely populated border worlds, and the Zerg had basically overrun the planets by the time he arrived. Tarsonis was the most heavily populated Terran world in the sector and still fighting. It was a different kettle of fish.

johnnythewolf wrote:
Kerrigan would not have left Mengsk, even after that. She was simply too loyal to him. Mengsk, on the other hand, was beginning to fall into his paranoid downward spiral, and had felt she'd outlived her usefulness at that point, probably wouldn't have recognized that fact.


I doubt she was really that loyal. She sticked with him because he rescued her and she believed in his cause, but I doubt she was that subordinate.

You could see how she progressively started second-guessing their mission after the SoK got their hands on the Psi-Emitters. Things would have certainly escalated even more after "New Gettysburg", had Mengsk not betrayed her.


I wouldn't call her subordinate, she wasn't a blind follower, but she was a very loyal person. You earned her loyalty, and she'd stick with you through thick and thin. Mengsk hadn't quite hit his point of no return (that was his "I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me!" speech), but the writing was on the wall by that point, Kerrigan just didn't want to believe it.

johnnythewolf wrote:
Uhm, one of the major points of Brood War was proving just how far gone Kerrigan is. Certainly, we still see some of her positive traits (she wasn't particularly happy about killing Duke and Fenix and slaughtering their forces, sparing Jim yet again, etc.), but considering it pushed Jim to the point of swearing revenge and promising that he'd be the one to kill her, yeah. Yeah, it is about Kerrigan reaching her point of no return.


Wait, what? Are you being sarcastic there? Because she was actually more than happy to kill Duke:

General Duke. You know I always wanted to have you
killed. This is kind of exciting for me.


And she sardonically taunted Fenix before killing him.

You're right, Fenix. I used you to get the job done, and
you played along just like I knew you would. You Protoss
are all so headstrong and predictable, you are your own
worst enemies.

I took that lesson to heart, Praetor. Now, are you ready
to die a second time?

Then that shall be your epitaph.


Read her comments at the end of the mission. She's not a happy camper about what she did there at all. She did it for purely strategic reasons, not because she wanted to.

johnnythewolf wrote:
They were clearly building up towards comeuppance at that point, rather than redemption. If they'd been building towards redemption, Jim would have been "I'll find a way to free you from the Zerg, I swear it!" or something, which would have led more logically into his mopiness in SC2. He don't know anythin' 'bout science.


Right. As if it would have made sense to say that, anyway. Like saying to an insane person who just murdered your pal: "Damn you! Mark my words: I shall find a way to make you sane again!"

Besides, in WoL, until Valerian showed up of course, Raynor seemed to have given up all hope of redeeming her, hence the mopiness. Well, that and his revolution going nowhere.


Eh, if you've got hope, you'll always believe that there's always a chance. If Blizzard had planned to redeem her at that point, they wouldn't have had Jim promise to be the one to kill her (that's making a promise to the audience! Most of who at that point want that! You don't break those. They are sacred!). SC2 clearly showed Jim seeing Kerrigan and Infested Kerrigan as two different people, while SC1 Jim seemed to blur them together.

johnnythewolf wrote:
Queen of Blades is part of the SC2 canon, not the SC1 canon. It was written six years after SC1 with Blizzard's approval. It's part of the retcon, Johnny.


Why do you keep using the word "retcon", anyway? Because it just wasn't mentioned before?


A retcon is a shortening of "Retroactive continuity". It's pretty much going back and saying: "hey! When you *thought* this happened, this is what really happened!". It can occur on varying levels from "The Never Before Seen, Lost, Untold tale of Jim and Raynor's Raiders!" to outright changing the sequence of events. Most of Blizzard's retcons are the sort where "hey, we were gunna do this, but now this is the new shiney, so we're going to do that now."

Queen of Blades is a retelling of the SC1 Zerg Campaign to bring it in line of the SC2 version of the StarCraft Universe. So you see the introduction of THE PROPHECY, and they kill off The Cerebrate because he and his ilk were getting in the way of The Plan despite the fact that he survived in the Original campaign and Brood War in the game. It is a retcon because it diverges from the previously established version of events.

johnnythewolf wrote:
Remember when you played that last level and got that transmission from a vision of an uninfested Kerrigan? It's supposed to be a "hint" that there's still a "good" Kerrigan trapped inside the "evil" one who needs Jim to save her. I felt it was a little heavy handed, personally. Plus they setup that whole "Dark Voice" plot with the Overmind itself spending most of its existance under its influence. They kind of heavily implied that the "Dark Voice" has been influencing Kerrigan too.


It's interesting to note that the last time Kerrigan reached telepathically to Raynor was when she was put in a chrysalis, which, we have to assume, was a rather traumatic experience.

Incidentally, in "All-In", Kerrigan is shown losing her composure and even panicking as the Artifact charges up. That was a first since her rebirth.


Yep. No matter what we choose to believe about Kerrigan, while in the Chrysalis she was going through a lot and she really didn't have much of a choice about it.

It's not too surprising that she'd lose her composure then, "All-In" was really the first time we've seen Infested Kerrigan put into a situation where she wasn't the one in control on some level.


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Re: Ret-Conning Greatly Weakens SC2 Story

Postby johnnythewolf » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:57 am

Thalraxal wrote:Oh, totally. Besides, as a Protoss, the most important part of the Galaxy (Auir and the Protoss Empire) was exactly what he was rampaging over at the time.


Not to mention the Terran worlds. According to BW, there were still Zerg broods remaining in Terran space (e.g. Tarsonis) after the Overmind's exodus to Char.

I don't think that's a good comparison at all. It's more like convincing the hostile, neighbouring civilization to invade your enemy's capital while plotting to take over the provinces and assuming that they won't come and clobber you while you're at it. Mengsk was playing with fire. They had no idea what the Zerg were or what they were capable of, and got burned as a result. I think Kerrigan was the first to realize just how dangerous those things were long before anyone else did.


It's clear Mengsk regarded the Zergs as nothing more than a Confederate's bioweapon. Still, he willingly decided to cut short to what would have been a long and costly conflict by using the Emitters, kinda like how the Europeans used smallpox to put an end to Pontiac's revolt. The "good" thing about the Zergs is that the Emitters do lure them to a specific point.

New Gettysburg was always intended to be on the surface of Tarsonis, not in orbit. So it's not actually retcon. There's also a cut Terran mission (the original version of "The Big Push", actually) that also took place in New Gettysburg and is Badlands.


Yeah, I knew about it already. The fact remains Blizzard chose to set the battle in space for some reason.

Tassadar had chosen to engage the Zerg directly in an effort to save Terrans, which ended up getting him relieved of his command by the Conclave (Protoss doctrine for dealing with the Zerg was "burn infested worlds. Spare no one."). That's why The Executor was appointed to replace Tassadar at the beginning of the Protoss campaign.

Chau Sara, Mar Sara and Antiga were all sparsely populated border worlds, and the Zerg had basically overrun the planets by the time he arrived. Tarsonis was the most heavily populated Terran world in the sector and still fighting. It was a different kettle of fish.


Good point, but that doesn't explain why Kerrigan "felt" the Protoss were here to destroy the planet.

Perhaps the Protoss originally intended to destroy the planet, but Tassadar changed his mind after witnessing the SoK's resistance?

I wouldn't call her subordinate, she wasn't a blind follower, but she was a very loyal person. You earned her loyalty, and she'd stick with you through thick and thin. Mengsk hadn't quite hit his point of no return (that was his "I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me!" speech), but the writing was on the wall by that point, Kerrigan just didn't want to believe it.


That's because Mengsk double-crossed her before she had the chance to directly confront him about the matter. As I said, there was no time to argue, as the Protoss had just shown up.

Read her comments at the end of the mission. She's not a happy camper about what she did there at all. She did it for purely strategic reasons, not because she wanted to.


It is done, Cerebrate. They've all been destroyed. Let
us return to Tarsonis to rest. For the first time since my
transfiguration I am wearied of the slaughter.


She sounded more bored than remorseful, honestly. If she were really that concerned by strategic reasons, she would have NOT spared Mengsk (hell, she wouldn't have bothered rescuing him at all) nor would she have let Raynor go AGAIN. Duke and Fenix were hardly a threat to her.

Eh, if you've got hope, you'll always believe that there's always a chance. If Blizzard had planned to redeem her at that point, they wouldn't have had Jim promise to be the one to kill her (that's making a promise to the audience! Most of who at that point want that! You don't break those. They are sacred!). SC2 clearly showed Jim seeing Kerrigan and Infested Kerrigan as two different people, while SC1 Jim seemed to blur them together.


Don't you tell me you were really expecting a climactic showdown between Jim and Kerrigan at some point?

Besides, Raynor's promise was made out of shock and sheer anger. Kerrigan even made fun of him by pointing out that he didn't actually have what it takes to kill her. Judging by WoL's beginning, Jimmy seems to have realized she was right. He had really no reason to believe there was hope to redeem her until Valerian showed up.

And of course, Jimmy regards Kerrigan and the QoB as two different people, because that's what they are, personality wise; as I previously said, human Kerrigan was humble and altruistic, while the QoB was just a mean, mean psychopath! In BW, he joined forces with her because she made him believe she was still the old Sarah, on whom he had a crush... and still have, it seems.

Just because your former girlfriend has turned into an evil alien queen doesn't mean that you can't have lingering feelings for her.

A retcon is a shortening of "Retroactive continuity". It's pretty much going back and saying: "hey! When you *thought* this happened, this is what really happened!". It can occur on varying levels from "The Never Before Seen, Lost, Untold tale of Jim and Raynor's Raiders!".


*That* is a retcon?

Then, in that case, pretty much everything introduced in Brood War is a retcon: Duran, the UED, Shakuras, Braxis, Artanis being The Executor, and so on.

Queen of Blades is a retelling of the SC1 Zerg Campaign to bring it in line of the SC2 version of the StarCraft Universe. So you see the introduction of THE PROPHECY, and they kill off The Cerebrate because he and his ilk were getting in the way of The Plan despite the fact that he survived in the Original campaign and Brood War in the game. It is a retcon because it diverges from the previously established version of events.


Except Blizzard's policy regarding the novels has always been that the games' canon takes precedence, unless proven otherwise.


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