Adun (complete)

(June 6th, 2009 - June 15th, 2009) Completed: July 31st, 2009
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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby TheProgramer » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:48 pm

Krazy wrote:Anyway, I haven't been trying to bust your balls or anything, I mean a lot of your shorter, more original missions are pretty much fine for the most part.  But you were pimping your final map in the contest thread, so I focused on it :P


Yeah I understand.  I'm really, really, really happy to hear you had fun and it has some replayability to it.  Glad you enjoyed it, that was my ultimate goal.
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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby TheProgramer » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:04 pm

So if you read the above messages you would see that I have accidentally created some frictions between timelines in my campaign.  I put in my proluge that the story is taking place 3 years after the events of BroodWar, but in the epilogue I stated that everything took place [spoiler]before Ulrezaj had become a Dark Archon[/spoiler] putting the story to take place only after the Protoss Campaign of BroodWar, but before the last events of BroodWar.  So  I was wondering if the contradiction of timelines would disqualify me, and if not would I lose more points by re-publishing the epilogue or by leaving it the way it was.  I messaged Ricky_Honejasi who said it would be wiser if I just left it as is.  So that is that.  I plan to fix the epilogue and am willing to send it to anyone who wants it, but the detail is minor so I don't see that anyone will realistically ask me for the fixed one, but I am willing to give it to anyone who does.  After all the criticism (constructive I hope) comes in, and my Campaign is 'graded' I will fix all the errors and publish a final version (non-contest) for download if you want.

Following is transcripts of the pm correspondence with Ricky_Honejasi posted with his permission as noted in the last two pms*. (note that I thought the error was also in the final in-game cinematic but I was wrong)


BEGIN TRANSCRIPT

TheProgramer on August 13, 2009, 09:13:47 PM
I have realized I made an error.  I had made a plot comment during the epilogue and final cinematic at end of last level that ended up mixing some time-frames.  I was wondering would it be better for me to republish those two maps, or leave as is.  In other words which will end up in me being reducded less points?

Ricky_Honejasi on August 14, 2009, 06:17:00 AM

You are better off just leaving it like that especially when some time-frame mistakes are quite minor compared to the story overall. You are certain to get lots of penalty to push to get your new official entry as any newer version now to fix a ridiculously minor detail in the grand scheme of things.

Plus with all the issues that happened around Oracle's case, I honestly don't want to start another considerable problematic issue that would resolve around you being allowed to fix things way late in the deadline and have it as official while others can't.



TheProgramer on August 15 at 06:23:58 AM
Thanks for your quick reply, and I sure do understand not trying to bring up another hoorah with me updating that would put everyone in a hissy-fit b/c of Oracle,  but I realize I was not clear.  The time-frame issue puts my campaign events BEFORE Ulrezaj had become a DA putting my campaign before the end of BroodWar making me not fit into the campaign's four-year segment, everything else puts it in the 4-year segment but a stament or two do not.  Like I said it's easy to change, so since the error has to do with what the contest was actually about, will I be disqualified, or will I only be marked down a few points since it was a statment or two that made it before the end of BW?

Ricky_Honejasi on August 15 at 07:18:59 AM
Since most of your storyline is after Brood War, there should not have any real issues. It would be only a real problem if you completely ignored the prerequisite.

Personally, I expect that you are more likely to just lose some points IF it's inconsistent for a specific part of your story's time-frame. For example : you say statements that lead to believe it's before the Brood War and then in the same relative time of your story, you say other statements that implies that it is after the Brood War.

The other possible example that might get some of your marks off is if your story is linear time-wise (not of the "go in the future" then "go in the past" like in some campaigns) AND your first statement being pre-Brood War is AFTER your first statement being after-Brood War leading to another case of inconsistency.



*TheProgramer on August 15 at 08:46:32 AM
Would you mind if I posted our previous pms back and forth on my fourm topic thread?

*Ricky_Honejasi on August 15 at 01:13:36 PM
I don't mind although I don't see it as necessary however. Mostly because if someone is wondering about the same relative question, it's kind of too late to ask it and do something about it unless said person want peace of mind (which I presume it is in your case).

However, you need to consider that I only said the most probable result and ultimately it's up to Lavarinth to decide but quite frankly, Lavarinth wouldn't disqualify someone over this. Might be even be possible that he won't scratch points (although personally I would).


END TRANSCRIPT
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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby chris » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:41 am

Well I played this, might as well give my opinion

pros:
- Very little B&D
- Fun overall
- Decent story

cons:
- The dialogues between the protoss at times look more like terran dialogues. Since when do protoss say "dang" and stuff like that. The terran leader sounds like a 16 year old.... if it was a marine it would be good, but  a leader? A leader should sound like Arcturus.
- Lots of typos, some of them in very embarrassing places like the load map screen. You even misspelled "end of briefing" at one point. How can you misspell that?
- Now, I'm one who doesn't normally care about stuff like doadads or mapping detail, but my god the layout of the map and the unit placements in mission 8 looks like they were made by a 15 year old who just discovered staredit. Whats with all the repetitive buildings spammed next to each other? Jesus christ look at the vespene geysers. unit placement is awkward as well, like the tanks right next to the protoss base
- Mission 5 and 6 could easily have been combined into 1 mission.
- The first mission, was too slow and could have been sped up. Also it really could have used doadads.

Overall:
I think its much better than browncloud's campaign, but the chance of it being a winner doesn't see to be good. The chance is existent though, I still have 7 more campaigns to play and for all I know yours could just be the best out of them. Also, stop worrying about that plot comment, its a non-issue. I'd worry more about typos and poor mapping.
Zilla- wrote:campaign creations presents campaign creations starcraft campaign contest

Lavarinth on podcast wrote:Hey kids, this is Lavarinth. I know I didn't say much in this podcast, actually, I didn't say anything at all. See you guys on the next podcast.

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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby chris » Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:26 am


I also found the "not enough B&D here/better than browncloud's" comments peculiar, considering I thought your critique of browncloud's was that it had too much B&D and thus was boring.

You misunderstood me, i meant that its a good thing that there is little B&D in this campaign, I listed it as a pro, not a con.
Zilla- wrote:campaign creations presents campaign creations starcraft campaign contest

Lavarinth on podcast wrote:Hey kids, this is Lavarinth. I know I didn't say much in this podcast, actually, I didn't say anything at all. See you guys on the next podcast.

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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby thebrowncloud » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:29 am

chris wrote:
I think its much better than browncloud's campaign, but the chance of it being a winner doesn't see to be good.

I understand you hate B&D with a burning passion, but you don't need to go and flat-out say it's better than ours because of that one fact. That's not cool, man.


chris wrote:Also, stop worrying about that plot comment, its a non-issue. I'd worry more about typos and poor mapping.

I disagree. The lore is half the battle. His story will either be seen as occuring before the "4 year" period and not cover the contest criteria or during the period and bypass already known facts. An error is an error.

I look forward to playing this one, though. I still have alot of other campaigns and haven't had much time lately. I'm not sure which one I'm gonna look at next, but I think it will be this one.  :)
"Imagination is the beginning of creation. You imagine what you desire, you will what you imagine and at last you create what you will."
-George Bernard Shaw

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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby TheProgramer » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:35 pm

Hey guys I really appreciate all the comments, it will really help me to make the final edition (non-contest) and i'm glad even though you guys are seeing flaws you keep playing it and I really appreciate it.  I am curious on what you guys think about the mission "Another Delivery" that mission I was most concerned about public comments, because I could kinda tell which maps I made that were not the best in the world and expected people to criticize (such as The Killing of a god) but I really can't predict what you will think of "Another Delivery" and browncloud when you do it please tell me what you think about it.  Thanks for putting up with the errors and giving me constructive criticism.
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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby chris » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:45 am

thebrowncloud wrote:I understand you hate B&D with a burning passion, but you don't need to go and flat-out say it's better than ours because of that one fact. That's not cool, man.
Its not only that one fact and I don't have B&D that much, it depends on how the B&D plays out. Whatever, I'll stop pointing fingers.

thebrowncloud wrote:I look forward to playing this one, though. I still have alot of other campaigns and haven't had much time lately.

heh, same situation here.

I'm playing the campaigns in this order 1->10->8->7->5->3->6->4->9->2->oracle
Last edited by chris on Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zilla- wrote:campaign creations presents campaign creations starcraft campaign contest

Lavarinth on podcast wrote:Hey kids, this is Lavarinth. I know I didn't say much in this podcast, actually, I didn't say anything at all. See you guys on the next podcast.

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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby thebrowncloud » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:59 am

chris wrote:I'm playing the campaigns in this order 1->10->8->7->5->3->6->4->9->2->oracle

Wait, what are those numbers? Is that the order they were submitted or something?
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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby omega20 » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:00 am

thebrowncloud wrote:
chris wrote:I'm playing the campaigns in this order 1->10->8->7->5->3->6->4->9->2->oracle

Wait, what are those numbers? Is that the order they were submitted or something?


I think this is what those numbers mean. Correct me if I'm wrong. ;)

Ricky_Honejasi wrote:Completed campaigns

Download links inside the spoilers (which were used to make it more compact).

#1 : The Will of Atai by "Krazy"/"LokiArexon" (USWest/USEast)

#2 : StarCraft: Vile Egression by "Laconius"

#3 : StarCraft: Reuniting by "Jim_Raynor"

#4 : Echoes by "Tipereth"

#5 : Yells of Freedom by "omega20"

#6 : Celestial Reverie: The Sweet Science by Marco "Desler" Hernandez


#7 : Starcraft: Aftermath by "GnaReffotsirk"

#8 : Adun by "TheProgramer"

#9 : Rise From The Ashes by "Dem0nS1ayer"

#10 : StarCraft: Hands of Power by "thebrowncloud"

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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby chris » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:20 pm

yep
Zilla- wrote:campaign creations presents campaign creations starcraft campaign contest

Lavarinth on podcast wrote:Hey kids, this is Lavarinth. I know I didn't say much in this podcast, actually, I didn't say anything at all. See you guys on the next podcast.

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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:49 am

Critical Aspects

-> YES - Campaign's storyline is between Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2.

Comments related to the direct scoring

===TEXT
-> + Informs the player correctly of events for the most part.
-> - A ridiculous amount of typos.
-> - Grammar can be questionable at times.
-> - No text formatting.
-> - Protoss characters speaks too much "Terran'ish".

===PROFESSIONAL
-> + Minimal credits section with author's name only basically
-> - Thread updates seems a bit weak, no screenshots or anything special or spectacular.

===TRIGGERING
-> + Basic overall and functional overall.
-> + Use of switches and locations.
-> - One critical bug.
-> - Some minor bugs/issues.

===MAPPING - LAYOUT

-> + The layout seems good overall.
-> + No trouble maneuvering the maps

===MAPPING - BEAUTY

-> + Passable overall (looks okay but can look too often rushed and plain)
-> - Some doodads were put but lacks doodads in general
-> - Inconsistency of terrain quality in the campaign (some are very plain while others are fine)

===Brownie Points
Note : This doesn't influence directly the scores but might improve it

-> + Custom music
-> + Some effort to avoid the same type of gameplay over and over

===Drawbacks (outside the score system)
Note : Might potentially influence negatively the campaign's scores.

-> An truly overpowered hero that reminds too much of some newbie multiplayer maps found on battle.net


===INDIVIDUAL MAPS=====

GENERAL

Issue : Map's filenames don't put the maps in order of logical gameplay. Since there are 10+ maps, maps #1 to #9 should be #01 to #09 (so #10 go below #09), Prologue should be #00 and Epilogue should be #11 to properly order them.

Issue : Protoss characters often refer to their race as "Protoss" too often (which usually you only call another race by their race name).

Issue : No auto-map switching in-between maps at completion of a map.

Issue : Heroes lack a different color (green being normally the standard) to make them different than normal units and easier to spot on the battlefield.

Issue : On mission objectives updates, you should state the objectives on text instead of relying on the player to manually watch them in the game menu's mission objectives.

Complain : You really, really but really need to correct your bunch of typos. There are simply too many.


PROLOGUE

Issue: Lacks an "Start Mission" or "End Briefing" piece of text at the end (especially since the briefing was long and you can think the "summon" would be in the briefing).



MAP 1

Issue : It is possible to sneak from the orange guards that makes the orange player become an enemy to you thus making various odd dialogue (with Orange player still allied to you) and even skipping a part of the story (although possible to go back to normal despite the oddness).

Bug : You can destroy the east passage's destination warp gate at no consequences (before even the orange player switches sides if you "sneak" in).

Issue : Probe should not be able to construct anything. While you have no resources, it is possible to start constructing if a player uses the resource cheat thus making the whole mission odd (while you can disable all buildings to be made).

Bug : No defeat if the probe is destroyed (since if it is destroyed, you can no longer technically win if you require the data disc to be transported to the end).

Bug : After Hale becomes your ally, killing him doesn't result in a defeat.

Bug : It is possible to lure Teal-controlled Hale (which is flagged enemy to you at this point) with hallucinations to you before the location to switch him as ally and to kill him as Teal Hale.

Typo : "comming" instead of "coming"
Typo : "al lthese" instead of "all these"
Typo : "necceary" instead of "necessary"
Typo : "bretheren" instead of "brethren"
Typo : "leauge" instead of "league"
Typo : "teleports" instead of "teleporters"
Typo : "controll" instead of "control"
Typo : "gaurds" instead of "guards"
Typo : "they must of come" instead of "they must come"
Typo : "foward" instead of "forward"
Typo : "overunning" instead of "overrunning"
Typo : "informatoin" instead of "information"
Typo : "finsh" instead of "finish"
Typo : "enterance" instead of "entrance"
Typo : "sheild" instead of "shield"
Typo : "escape" instead of "escaped" (as in "has escape us")
Typo : "retireved" instead of "retrieved"
Typo : "thrown" instead of "throw" (as in "Thrown down your arms and [...] be judged)


MAP 2

Complain : In the objectives, "Protect the Statis Cells" can be implied with "At least 5 Statis Cells must survive" (redundancy).

Suggestion : In the objectives, it might be nice to add "before 30 minutes has passed" for the the objection concerning the retaking of the temple and Crystal formation.

Complain : Victory should be given as soon all the enemy buildings are destroy instead of having to wait all 30 minutes for the same condition to apply for victory.

Bug : Hale being killed doesn't trigger a defeat.

Bug : Losing all Nexuses result in a message that Hale was killed.

Bug : Defeat trigger based on no enemy buildings left after 30 minutes might not correctly start since it relies on the "exactly at 1 second timer left" which might be bypassed because of how starcraft triggers works (should be "at most 1" or "exactly 0 second").

Complain : "Defend the Lower Right Base" objective should be "Protect your base's buildings" (due to the trigger leading to defeat based on number of buildings lost globally).

Typo : "crimnal" instead of "criminal"
Typo : "crimanals" instead of "criminals"
Typo : "wil" instead of "will"
Typo : "aginst" instead of "against"
Typo : "expieres" instead of "expires"
Typo : "inital" instead of "initial"



MAP 3

Issue : No death message if Hekouhe is killed (just a defeat).



MAP 4

Issue : The yellow shuttles and dropships should be invincible and NOT controllable by the player until they finish landing the units (else they might be hit before being ordered preventing the landing). Ultimately only half of the troops do land.

Issue : Should have a message when trying to pass air units through the "anti-air barrier" that air units cannot pass there.

Bug : Hekouhe can die without a defeat.

Bug : Snider can die without a defeat.

Issue : You can destroy the red landing shuttle in the second part (should be invincible).

Odd : Looks odd when your only science vessel AND lifted buildings at bottom can "cross" the anti-air line into the top.

Complain : Your buildings should be invulnerable and giving to an allied AI to prevent lifting and training units when you have no resources and serve no real propose.

Typo : "Destory" instead of "Destroy"
Typo : "survie" instead "survive"
Typo : "supiriotiy" instead of "superiority"


MAP 5

Issue : No death message when Hekouhe dies (only defeat).

Bug : Dartilen and his whole base should be invulnerable (otherwise it is possible to kill Dartilen and lay siege on his base while he is talking)



MAP 6

Complain : While the carriers are triggered to stay "stuck" at their positions, it is possible to unstuck them via recall. Better to just give them to the friendly AI instead.

Bug : Possible to destroy the starting warp gate at no consequences (should be invincible).

Issue : Both heroes can be killed without a death message (just defeat).



MAP 7

Critical : Even after killing every enemy unit, victory isn't granted. You forgot to set Player 5 to "Allied Victory" (it's set just to "Ally" which probably remove "Allied Victory" flag) to make your trigger work.

Typo : "goign" instead of "going"
Typo : "arn't" instead of "aren't"
Typo : "unti" instead of "unit"
Typo : "Prepaer" instead of "Prepare"
Typo : Lacks an "of" in "Reincarnation Adun"



MAP 8

Complain : For a large scale battle, you should start with more than 50 minerals and 0 gas.

Complain : Considering how the rest of the base is properly aligned, the Supply Depots are put very randomly there and there.

Issue : If some Siege Tanks starts in Siege mode, you should start with the Siege Mode upgrade (or them being Hero Tanks).

Issue : Game menu's mission objectives doesn't mention that you need to keep all technicians alive and the Ion Cannon standing.

Issue : No death messages when losing the Ion cannon nor any of the technicians (only a defeat).

Complain : Adun is simply too overpowered which storywise it feels very questionable but worse his 255 armor makes him only killable with nukes (and to a lesser extend, mass yamato guns). To top it, there is no mention about nukes being advisable since many players won't check Adun's armor.

Bug : Some enemy protoss buildings start unpowered which is illogical.

Typo : "extisive" instead of "extensive"
Typo : "surronding" instead of "surrounding"
Typo : "succesfully" instead of "successfully"
Typo : "enemie" instead of "enemy"
Typo : (Unit name) "Technicion" instead of "Technician"
Typo : "regement" instead of "regiment"


MAP 9

Issue : If some Siege Tanks starts in Siege mode, you should start with the Siege Mode upgrade (or them being Hero Tanks).

Bug : "Unit Unplacable (Zerg Hydralisk)" is seen.

Bug : "Unit Unplacable (Map Revealer)" is seen.

Note : Both of the above are seen when finishing the psi emitter goal.

Bug : Some bunkers at top-right are oddly auto-loaded (one bunker with one marine, another with 3 ghosts, etc. instead of full).

Complain : Adun should change back ownership instead of blowing up everything if you try to Mind Control it.


MAP 9 AND 10

Note : This is a list of typos found in maps 9 and 10. Forgot to separate them on my paper sheets at that point.

Typo : "emmiter" instead of "emitter"
Typo : "lets" instead of "let's"
Typo : "oursleves" instead of "ourselves"
Typo : "fullfilment" instead of "fulfillment"
Typo : "Ingore" instead of "Ignore"
Typo : "controll" instead of "control"
Typo : "spilt" instead of "spill"
Typo : "slef" instead of "self"
Typo : "ture" instead of "true"
Typo : "sence" instead of "sense"
Typo : "mereley" instead of "merely"
Typo : "precusure" instead of "precursor"


EPILOGUE

Praise : Minimal credit section with only the author's name and website.

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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby Krazy » Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:45 pm

Ricky_Honejasi wrote:-> - Inconsistency of terrain quality in the campaign (some are very plain while others are fine)
...
EPILOGUE

Praise : Minimal credit section with only the author's name and website.


You mean because some maps the terrain is based on melee terrain whereas others are from scratch?  I don't know, that was actually what most bothered me about the credits, when Programer did not list the terrain he'd based some missions from (ie Crystal Castles for the final map http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Crystal_Castles ; "The Battle of Rosewood" is Rosewood, http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Rosewood ; etc.)

Guide to beating final mission: http://starcraftgalaxies.blogspot.com/2010/04/guide-to-beat-adun-final-mission.html

Video of map:

Adun
Last edited by Krazy on Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby TheProgramer » Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:10 pm

Well.  I wasn't expecting THAT many problems, and that few praises, but what is, is what is, and what shall be, shall remain.  I am happy that you were so detailed as it will be great for me to make a final versian.  I was hoping for some comment on the readme, but alas that didn't happen.  Thanks for the chance to enter this contest, and as I said many times before, I don't expect to win but had fun anyway.
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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:12 am

Krazy wrote:You mean because some maps the terrain is based on melee terrain whereas others are from scratch?  I don't know, that was actually what most bothered me about the credits, when Programer did not list the terrain he'd based some missions from (ie Crystal Castles for the final map http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Crystal_Castles ; "The Battle of Rosewood" is Rosewood, http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Rosewood ; etc.)


Well, by that I implied that he did have some credit section of any sort (more credits of any sort is better in my book). Although he should have made mention of having used those melee maps in his campaign.

EDIT : Okay, he mentioned he used some starcraft maps at least in his readme. Still would have been preferable in the credits section of his campaign.

In all honesty, I tend to have a very bad memory of the various terrains in the original campaigns and melee maps so I tend to not check for that (same for lore-related things too). Testing in general already take quite a bit of time and Lavarinth & Dread will probably spot such things many times easier that I would.

Well.  I wasn't expecting THAT many problems, and that few praises, but what is, is what is, and what shall be, shall remain.  I am happy that you were so detailed as it will be great for me to make a final versian.  I was hoping for some comment on the readme, but alas that didn't happen.  Thanks for the chance to enter this contest, and as I said many times before, I don't expect to win but had fun anyway.


Well, you need to remember that I tend to make it more a "bug report" style rather than saying what's good or not. As for praises, I tend to only do a few and far in-between. You can compare with other campaigns and even on the best ones, I only praised somewhat more than others in my reports.

As for the readme, I only checked it quickly but didn't spend much time on it. I was much more focused on testing the campaign itself.

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Re: Adun (complete)

Postby Legion » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:15 pm

Ricky_Honejasi wrote:
You can compare with other campaigns and even on the best ones, I only praised somewhat more than others in my reports.



Best ones?

I think we're going to hear the outcome soon...


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