Warlords and Merchants Discussion

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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby Mucky » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:27 pm

IskatuMesk wrote:/e fuck you for dragging me into this again

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IskatuMesk
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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:22 pm

so mad

I know it's pointless to talk balance because the only people who care can't change anything.

For the record I don't consider stalkers "overpowered", I just think that circumstancial events makes them incredibly strong through warp gates and some other factors.

Also I think predators should just cost more minerals for the time being.
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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby EVWeb » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:00 pm

I just want to put it here so Ricky remembers.

Atomic Crusaders need to have air vision, not ground.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby Xenon » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:11 pm

To deal with the air-only detection, I'm considering a "floating" unit that is targeted as ground and fragile, with a radar/detect radius (about 18 or 20) that can be turned on and off. The radius is visible to enemies while active, so Argus is still better if you want to watch an area more stealthily.

Something like this might also help scour the map for hidden buildings in the endgame.


Maybe the Observer and Overseer could use the old vision upgrades from SC1. How much detect radius does a Mother Overlord have anyway?

The Scantolisk could probably take a 20% damage reduction (to 12+8 to armored). Damage upgrades should be 1+1 to armored, not a flat +2.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:43 pm

Would it be possible to update the UI so ingame it shows how much damage you are getting from upgrades independently? It's absurd they haven't added that yet...
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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:56 pm

As far as balance is concerned for me, since W&M will be essentially impossible to truly balance even with endless effort, I mostly settle in trying to have some relative balance.

By this I imply :
- not having the exact same unit such as the AC being used almost exclusively.
- all units have at least some half-reasonable counters even if they are overall OP.
- try to make all units any half-useful (ex : Firebats against Lings/Zealots)

True balance is an endless quest I DON'T want to poke. Plus, if we disagree on some stuff, going deep into balance means we disagree 10-20x more and strife easily starts out of it.

I will be frank : I don't have the time nor the emotional strength (can be easily disturbed for days/weeks, often leading me to just give up on W&M on an undetermined amount of time) to do that.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby Vetraeus » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:03 pm

Screw balancing, make a Battleships map already god damnit.
Do not argue with an idiot; He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:38 pm

This.
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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby Mucky » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:05 pm

Where is Wahtleships for SC2?

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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby Xenon » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:37 pm

Hey, somebody remembered! :D

Unfortunately, I tried a collision projectile test map and it lagged horribly with about 200 active projectiles. That's only ~17 per player for a 12 player map, and I wanted creep waves to use them too. A map on Bnet, fleet assault or something, becomes unplayable due to lag and its collision projectiles don't even use triggers (I think).

I kind of have one of Mesk's dilemmas of wanting to do things the game engine turns out to be incapable of.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:52 pm

Yeah. Projectile lag is a big issue, not just with sc2 but a lot of games. If only the game was multithreaded...

Perhaps an alternate combat design would be plausible?
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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby Mucky » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:58 pm

Xenon wrote:Hey, somebody remembered! :D

Unfortunately, I tried a collision projectile test map and it lagged horribly with about 200 active projectiles. That's only ~17 per player for a 12 player map, and I wanted creep waves to use them too. A map on Bnet, fleet assault or something, becomes unplayable due to lag and its collision projectiles don't even use triggers (I think).

I kind of have one of Mesk's dilemmas of wanting to do things the game engine turns out to be incapable of.

Something that was doable in WC3 isn't so in SC2? Figures.

Me, I'm working on a secret project that I'm pretty sure will work.

And by "pretty sure", I mean

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t348e24vDyA

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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby Xenon » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:35 pm

It's not like what I have in mind now would have worked on WC3, which seemed to suffer terrible Bnet lag on the map for unknown reasons and probably wouldn't handle 200 shots well. I expanded my expectations too far, including 12 players, creep waves, and large ships which could hold a lot of weapons. The inability to use time intervals in SC2 any smaller than 1/16 seconds on normal doesn't help either.

Also, I'm still frustrated with the "submit to our censors or screw off" deal even though it probably wouldn't affect the map itself.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby Mucky » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:02 pm

Xenon wrote:Also, I'm still frustrated with the "submit to our censors or screw off" deal even though it probably wouldn't affect the map itself.

I say we all do what the Mafia map does. Vulgar language is out, but you can have electrocutions and sexual innuendo.

How often would you expect 200+ projectiles to be flying around at once? I'd think that would only reasonably happen in huge team fights.

Doesn't the trigger editor support 1/32 intervals? That would be enough for smooth movement.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants Discussion

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:44 pm

Both wc3 and sc2 have enforced latency which is responsible for "bnet lag" from the start, before networking issues start going into play. This is why shooter maps will never, ever work even if they fixed culling issues and such.
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