Warlords and Merchants is now public!

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:25 pm

So I finally reclaimed my main computer after 2 1/2 weeks. I initially had to come back with it to the shop right after getting it since with the way they did put the new motherboard back it blocked the network plug. Now they fixed that part too live today.

I also plan to format and reinstall Windows XP on it considering it might have quite a bit of junk laying around anyway.

While I am now (in theory) to do stuff properly in W&M, I still have to put high priority on my homework and studies (or to truly relax from it). So don't expect much change in the next weeks.

At the very least, I can at least really play in upcoming FFS events if nothing wrong happens.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Alevice » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:45 pm

Somewhat related, this map/tool might help you if you ever intend to revamp the UI:
http://www.sc2mapster.com/announcements ... -designer/

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:18 am

So my university's semester ended a few days ago and now I can start to finally bother W&M in any way.

At this point, it's kind of a hard spot for me about W&M. I already spent a lot of time on W&M. Then considering how there are fewer FFS players (B.Net 2.0 issues + me losing my main for 3 weeks didn't help), it gives less and less point to play W&M.

So my only real hope left regarding W&M might actually patch 1.2 as odd it sounds. It would change two things :
1) Popularity is based on time played rather than # of games (which could be much less painful to "boost" by letting SC2 all day or so)
2) A chat channels that could serve as a hub for W&M.

Although, I still have big reservations about it. There is the point that even FFS players seems to be fleeing from the map. The few "pubbies" (off from a FFS player's friend) seems to easily give up or find it "complex" (when it's probably one of the least complex maps I made if it could be even honestly called "complex").

In my current concrete plans, I only intend to bother to bring RCX's SC1 units into W&M and if it's not too painful and not glitchy, switch map dependancies to have recent melee data on top so that the issue of having outdated data would be gone in the long run. That seems to be the only changes that could be worthwhile before patch 1.2.

I don't intend to make any big overhauls (ex : the interface except what was already done) considering that too many things seems to point that it won't be worth the effort in the ultimate end. I don't expect FFS players to really come back and B.Net 2.0 made many custom public players too used to the dumb simple maps.

In fact, most things seems to point towards making a new map period if I am going to bother seriously putting more effort into SC2 mapmaking.

My only projects that could honestly work (after stopping working on W&M for real) would be :

1) Defense Map with custom-made player units
A defense map where you could custom make some of your units and even enemy units. The ultimate idea is that no two games are the same considering all the possible creations from the various players (saved into bank files).

I do have some knowledge on how to "compress" data into bank files to attempt to maximize the number of units that players can create. That one was one of big projects that I gave up before patch 1.1 due to bank files being barely supported by B.Net 2.0 which became in patch 1.1. With patch 1.1, it's a possible project again.

One of my ideas about it was also allow to have a "reactionary AI" for any custom unit type that players could determine.

Example :
#Reactionary AI for Custom Blinking Reapers (made by a player)#
* Favored Foes : Buildings, Light units, Others (in this order)

* Event - Battle Start
* Action : Attack Start - Split Left/Right extremities (instead of going to Center)

* Event - Unit is attacking
* Action : Spell - Stimpack (if not active)

* Event - Unit takes damage
* Action : Spell : Blink (Away from foes)

* Event - Unit has foes nearby (Sight Range : 6)
* Condition - Unit has 25% HP or less
* Action : Order : Flee away from foes (Range : 10)

2) Tactical Map (Singleplayer focused)
Some tactical map "done right". Basically you have levels to complete against lots of static enemy units while you have a minimal army (but you can purchase it with minimal resources). It would be primarily singleplayer with the possibility to have 3-4 players (ordering the same units) with an alternate variant.

To attempt to interest the longest range of players, it could have difficulties from "Baby Easy" (even easier than "Easy") to "Insane" (intended to be truly rigged for the most serious players). Tutorials are also intended.

One of my other ideas for it would be to allow to "pre-order" your units in a chain to let you execute strategies that might be just too micro-intensive for the player.

Example :
#1) Move Unit 1,2,3 to X spot (let's say left of enemy entrance)
#2) Move Unit 4,5,6 to Y spot (let's say right of enemy entrance)
#3) Global Wait until Order #1 and Order #2 finishes
#4) Order Unit 1 "Ghost - Lockdown" Enemy Unit 8
#5) Order Unit 4 "Ghost - Lockdown" Enemy Unit 9
#6) Global Wait 0.75 seconds (for lockdowns to be done)
#7) Unit 2,3,5,6 attack Enemy Unit 8
#8) Global Wait 0.25 seconds
#9) Unit 1,4 attack Enemy Unit 8
#10) Global Wait until Enemy Unit 8 is dead
#11) Unit 1 to 6 attack Enemy Unit 9
#12) Global Wait until Enemy Unit 9 is dead

On top of it, it could have a "Beta Shadows" mode where you see unit shadows following your pre-orders to have a theoretical idea if your inputted order chain looks right or if you screwed up before even executing it for real. Note that "Beta Shadows" won't factor units that weren't even seen (especially spider mines).

Some potential extra could be to allow players to create their own levels (saved into bank files) that could be shared with others. Another might be to implement some "Random Map" (not terrain-wise but foes-wise) feature in the map.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Xenon » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:34 pm

I'm disgusted with Battle.net because of the reasons described by Mesk 7 months ago that have seen little changes since. I don't want to subject any of my work to such a hideous system, and probably won't bother to work on my map unless an "alternative" to Battle.net arises.

Even if I did work on it, it's very trigger-heavy and I'm concerned it will end up with this problem.

How active was Satyr Saturday shortly after RoC came out? At least RoC had more opportunities for silly in-house map making. Is it any wonder Mucky hasn't bothered to make even a simple map? Even the goofy "SMOKE WEED EVRADAY" sound clip would be grounds for banning a map.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:52 pm

Xenon wrote:I'm disgusted with Battle.net because of the reasons described by Mesk 7 months ago that have seen little changes since. I don't want to subject any of my work to such a hideous system, and probably won't bother to work on my map unless an "alternative" to Battle.net arises.

Even if I did work on it, it's very trigger-heavy and I'm concerned it will end up with this problem.

How active was Satyr Saturday shortly after RoC came out? At least RoC had more opportunities for silly in-house map making. Is it any wonder Mucky hasn't bothered to make even a simple map? Even the goofy "SMOKE WEED EVRADAY" sound clip would be grounds for banning a map.


Yeah, it still doesn't help at all. What annoys me the most from Blizzard is when the most silliest things (party size of 6, 30 secs countdown for autostarted public games, etc.) are still not changed yet that could require very minimal effort from their part. Even the upcoming chat channels feels like a week's work (while they spent like 2-3 months talking and turning in circles)

Although my biggest bane is still the popularity part of the whole thing. Hopefully chat channels will serve as decent hubs.

As for your memory limit, the closest that could help you would be the Data Tables to store any extra information (which don't seem to have any enforced limit). Although I admit that remaking strings to write or access said information in that manner might slow down considerably.

As for RoC, I think we did held SS with at least 8 players for years. Meanwhile with FFS, it's already weakening (although lacking my laptop for 3 weeks didn't help) after 4-6 months of SC2's release. We were united during RoC yet rather divised in SC2.

And yes, censorship is still a big issue otherwise I would consider myself making a silly map as well. Problem is that even if I go "clean", all it requires is just some semi-dirty joke that someone take 100x of an offensive for no good reason and manage to get the map banned.

Now with W&M updates :

Against my expectations, I did manage to change dependencies with minimal issues so that it now follows melee data so ill stop having to try to update my map to match the patches. I think the only issue might be that the void ray still triple-charge but ill bother with that another time.

Now, I am still merging with RCX's data. The main difficulties was finding which data that have issues and correct them on my side. For example, having an actor named "Phoenix2" (Phoenix Combo unit) on my side and "Phoenix2" (Corsair) on RCX's mod leading to some kind of glitch of some kind.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:54 pm

Now finally, I pretty much added RCX's units to my liking and newest W&M version is ready to be sent on the battle.net servers ...

Error : Too many dependencies (Current : 5, Maximum 4)

That's a retarded limit. If you use all 4 standard dependencies (to ensure you got everything), you are capped already.

Even in the best case scenario for some others, it means they can only use the 2 normal melee dependencies + 3 mods of 10 mb (instead of 4-5 to completely use their allowed space on a single map). So ultimately, either I would have to chop one of them and hope it doesn't break anything or I have to completely fuse RCX's data into W&M.

Since time-wise, it's quite close to FFS's start (if there is anyone playing this Christmas), I don't want to rush this kind of fusing job since it can go horribly wrong without proper testing.

EDIT : In addition, you are not always sure assured that you can re-download any tied mod correctly when you reload the map. Plus you have to log on b.net to modify a map that are tied to any uploaded mods (doesn't even load the downloaded mod on disk).

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Alevice » Sat Dec 25, 2010 3:10 pm

If RCX's mod already has the relevant dependencies, I think you can ommit them for your map.
Myabe just stack on top LibertyMulti to enusre patch updates.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:54 am

Ultimately, I decided to just completely fuse RCX's mod data into W&M. Due to having to log on b.net when I load the map with the occasional failure issues, I preferred that avenue to drop it to the 4 standard dependencies.

So the updates :

1) Added the following extra SC1 units via RazorclawX's mod : Valkyries, Corsairs, Reavers, Swarm Guardians, Devourers, Debilitators (SC1 Defilers) and Princess (SC1 Queens).

2) Added from RCX's mod : Lockdown for Ghosts and Spectres.

3) Modified dependencies so that it follows the latest melee patch's changes instead of staying with old campaign data.

4) Cheap & Fast Merchant techs now reduces standard unit costs by 8% instead of 10%.
5) You can now pick Warlord or Merchant in lobby in advance.
6) Mothership now have Planet Cracker.
7) Merchant Archives' researches are cheaper.
8) Merchants should now stop losing unnecessary profit score from researches due to miscalculations.
9) Some bug fixes there and there.

Note - Forgot to mention in the official changes :

New combo units : Hellion series
Only costs minerals for the whole line.

1) Charging Hellions (+0.5 speed if you have Zealot Charge research)
Requires Merch Tech 2+

2) AA Gauss Hellions (Hellions gets Marine's Gauss Rifle as anti-air weapon)
This Gauss Rifle requires Infantry Weapons (and not Ground Mech Weapons) upgrades to be better.
Also uses Charge. Requires Merch Tech 3+

3) Strafing Hellions (Hellions can "attack on the move" with both weapons)
Also uses Charge + Gauss Rifle. Requires Merch Tech 4+.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:43 pm

Newer version :

1) Mechants starts with 12500/5000 instead of 10000/3500 of resources.
2) Harvesting Rate is now back to 1.5x
3) Other players cannot modify your starting role anymore.
4) Races' starting units/buildings are now preloaded.
5) Combo Hellions were modified. Best ones have free bonus movement, attack on move and AA Beam. Thanks to EVWeb for this.
6) Raising a supply depot stops having that weird added animation.
7) Ranged combo units using Charge now gets a free speed bonus instead.
8) Ghosts' and Spectres' tooltips no longer say "Also have lockdown" twice.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:07 pm

With patch 1.2 released, the chat channel for W&M will be "WandM".

EDIT : In addition, since the popularity list is based on number of played hours (instead of # of games), I am likely to switch the main public map to the 15 players Exotic Map. It might be possible that I reduce the number of players of 10 for that same map for the "public version".

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:47 pm

So far, I am pleased with patch 1.2 in terms of getting W&M any played. It's now actually possible to have full houses of public W&M games much easier where in the past it was mostly impossible. It does help with motivation quite a bit for working further on W&M.

Meanwhile, the way the population list works is that joining the wanted games becomes VERY random. While it's a step forward from always being stuck with the same maps, they really need some "favorite map" system. It would allow to easily join your preferred maps while being able to join some random game on the list.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby UntamedLoli » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:06 pm

Blizzard probably has this ass-backwards logic that not having favourites means other maps get played.
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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:09 am

Hunter_Killers wrote:Blizzard probably has this ass-backwards logic that not having favourites means other maps get played.


Either that or laziness or something. It become more and more questionable what is happening in those offices.

Then again, since some maps had near-absolute monopoly of players for many months + beta (with editor), it might help more to let this logic reign for a while if only to break the players' acquired mentality of playing the same map over and over.

Although, eventually being able to favorite maps will become a must else we would just be stuck with the opposite of the problems we had.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:05 pm

So far, other than usual updates and such, I finally found out why AIs tend to go wrong on W&M and mostly fixed them.

Essentially, if an AI have X starting location, you HAVE to spawn the starting units at X location else it attempts to go from whatever alternative location you spawned it and attempt to build to its "real" starting location.

Of course with how I manage starting locations, odds are there is an enemy Warlord base spawned in their real location thus explaining why they tend to suicide their workers into the enemy's Defender.

Thus next update (this upcoming Saturday), AIs will properly work. The only potential exception would be if they have no starting location (ex : 13th player out of 12 starting locations) but that's something I have little control at this point unless it miraculously adapt.

EDIT : The only real other noteworthy update is the addition of the Advanced Research merchant which I still need to add more researches on it.

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Re: Warlords and Merchants is now public!

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:09 am

So against all expectations, the map author of the map which I used for the very first map terrain of W&M ... after many months of total silence, he finally gave permission to use his map terrain publicly.

So I fully intend to replace the public version (as in "Warlords and Merchants" and not "WandM") with that map terrain again. In other words, "WandM on Exotic Garden" and "WandM on Pi" will be still playable as usual.

Note that ill be using Mesk's modified version since the very original one had some considerable flaws.


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