To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

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Lavarinth
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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby Lavarinth » Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:37 pm

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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby IskatuMesk » Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:49 pm

so authoritative and manly omg
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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby Kaoru » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:15 pm

IskatuMesk wrote:
Not to mention, they sort of are obligated to do something about the Editor, and B.net 2.0 - because they have two more expansion packs to sell.


You could have said that about chat channels, online replays, and other things missing in the beta... and they still aren't here, and may not ever be here. If they do come it will probably be with those expansions and used as feature bullet points.

Point is, I've been told by the exact same guy who is now lead of sc2's editor back in wc3's hayday that Blizzard was aware of the numerous issues I had pointed out at the time and they won't ever fix them. The logic back then was that this would help prolong wc3's life, right? They just don't care.

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=123080
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=127066
viewtopic.php?f=76&t=3085
viewtopic.php?f=76&t=3108

I don't care what you do. Feel free to take any parts of my posts or articles and rewrite them as you see fit. But I am through with pen-pushing faggots in their high seats ignoring the little guy. This feedback thread is no doubt just an attempt to force all of the whiners into one spot so their forum isn't such an eye-sore anymore.

/edit

This is a simplified version I posted on sc2mapster a while ago. I guess I can copy paste this into that thread in about five seconds... but I'm not putting any salt into such an action.

-snip- (By the by, I read all of this, along with the other articles you linked. As you've heard before, really, really great stuff.)


First off, I already noticed that you posted the SC2Mapster version of that article up on the Feedback thread. Thank you - like both of us have said, there's no guarantee it'll do a single whit of good, but I honestly believe acting now gives us the best chance of accomplishing something. Whether they only opened the feedback threads to centralize 'whining', or whether the enormous negative backlash by their playerbase has left Blizzard and the development teams reeling and vulnerable to timely suggestions, I and nobody else knows. But their moderators are doing something other than contributing on the forums, those threads exist, and so there's a chance they're listening and honestly evaluating their options, here.

Second, yeah. I could say the same about a lot of features that haven't made it in. Although, haven't made it in yet is how I'd prefer to style that. I mean, how many patches did it take Blizzard to add replays to the original SC? Wasn't it around 1.05 or 1.07 that they did that? It's possible all of the feedback from Beta was tossed out the window in these regards, but it's also possible that they've been working on solutions to some of these things, solutions they can't discuss yet, or that they're still discussing what to do and not to do. These things take time. There's no guarantee anything will ever happen, and chances are we're never going to get a perfect world where everything is addressed to our satisfaction, but whether content is added through expansions or through patches, I am positive that there are changes coming.

And whether the high-level executives care about the playerbase or not, I'm sure that the people who created SC2 and Battle.net 2.0 care about their creations. Here's hoping that they care enough about quality to, as you put it in one article, 'kill their own children' - at least to the extent necessary to rebuild them, better.

P.S.: I'm still trying to work out with Billing why they won't let me buy SC2. I doubt I'll be listened to if I post in that thread (have no achievements, and so on) but when I can, I think I do want to try and synthesize several of your other articles and posts into a fresh one to contribute, there.
Lavarinth wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/248107291?page=13#258

Thanks tremendously, man. You make a very good point, and I honestly and truly hope your name carries a bit of weight, as well as the CC name and its status. It means a lot to me that you'd contribute this way, and while, yeah, there's no telling if it'll ever do any good, the die is now cast, and it's always better to speak up than remain silent.

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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby IskatuMesk » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:20 pm

I mean, how many patches did it take Blizzard to add replays to the original SC? Wasn't it around 1.05 or 1.07 that they did that?


Back then replays only existed in strange and arcane ways like for Counter-strike, and even then I could never get the damned things to work. They probably arose by the demand of the Korean gaming scene.

However, online replays was NEVER introduced for wc3 despite enormous backlash from removing it.
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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby Kaoru » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:30 pm

IskatuMesk wrote:
I mean, how many patches did it take Blizzard to add replays to the original SC? Wasn't it around 1.05 or 1.07 that they did that?


Back then replays only existed in strange and arcane ways like for Counter-strike, and even then I could never get the damned things to work. They probably arose by the demand of the Korean gaming scene.

However, online replays was NEVER introduced for wc3 despite enormous backlash from removing it.

And it's entirely possible that SC2 will follow the same path - but it's not a guaranteed loss. If the Korean scene had a say in the inclusion of replays, originally, then I'm sure they will again, if SC2 catches on there (and with the KeSPa fiasco, I admit, it may not, but...) - Blizzard may make the same choice again. And while Warcraft 3 sold amazingly well, it didn't have the global community and attention SC2 has - not to mention, Blizzard might be dissatisfied with the way Warcraft 3 has eventually turned out, in the online realm, and might want to rectify this for obvious profit-reasons.

I mean, strictly speaking, besides World of Warcraft, I think Starcraft is Blizzard's best-selling game in their history. They have big plans for it. I believe they will make big strides. (Though whether these strides will be in the direction we're all hoping for is harder to say.)

I don't want to parrot the old "Have faith in Blizzard!" line, because there are many ways in which that faith has been abused and ill-treated. But assuming Blizzard doesn't have any big World of Starcraft plans (And why would they? It'd pretty much compete directly with WoW...) they have every reason to act in their own self-interest to preserve the integrity of the Starcraft brand, so that when Starcraft III rolls around in another x years, it'll sell like hotcakes. Besides, I guarantee you that they aren't yet happy with the sales numbers for SC2. They want to recoup their investment several times over, and I think they appreciate that drastic measures will be needed to do that.

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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby IskatuMesk » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:40 pm

I've been told that Blizzard treated wc3 as basically a test bed or an experiment. Which is kind of weird and I wasn't sure I should believe that, but it seems they're making all the exact same mistakes again - much more severely this time.

You're right, only time will tell. I'll be waiting and watching... making plans with my parrots... but no time soon shall I expect to see any hint of improvement.
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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby Kaoru » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:52 pm

IskatuMesk wrote:I've been told that Blizzard treated wc3 as basically a test bed or an experiment. Which is kind of weird and I wasn't sure I should believe that, but it seems they're making all the exact same mistakes again - much more severely this time.

You're right, only time will tell. I'll be waiting and watching... making plans with my parrots... but no time soon shall I expect to see any hint of improvement.


It wouldn't surprise me. I actually thought there were a lot of weird, experimental things about WC3 that I wasn't expecting. It does seem very distressing that, yeah, some of the biggest mistakes from there are making a return here, some even in exacerbated form, but my current hope is that there will be enough people saying "Blizz, That S&%^ Won't Fly" that the "pen-pushers" will realize it's true, and that the devs will be convinced to make changes...

Yeah, when I put it that way, it's not such an inspiring sentence. But, hey. After all you've done, seen, and known, I don't think you keeping your expectations low are a bad thing. You've done your part, and this way, if anything does happen, it'll be a bit more enjoyable for being unexpected. And if nothing happens...well, you've at least got "I Told You So" cred, for whatever it's worth. Keep up the plans, man. Seeing what you did with the original game was a huge inspiration to me (and I'm sure, many others.) If it weren't for you, I probably would've never delved into iscript modification (which turned out to be a barrel of fun), and many other things.

Anyhow, point is - the more people giving the good suggestions we've got, the higher the chance of things getting seen, and done. Contributing feedback is always a crapshoot, but like any other gamble, it can pay off big, sometimes.

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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby UntamedLoli » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:18 pm

TBH if you want to get Blizzard's attention start bringing it up with big tech/gaming websites to get a front page news post of how bad it actually is, every news post I've seen involving the editor has pretty much been sucking up to them.


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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby Kaoru » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:31 pm

Hunter_Killers wrote:TBH if you want to get Blizzard's attention start bringing it up with big tech/gaming websites to get a front page news post of how bad it actually is, every news post I've seen involving the editor has pretty much been sucking up to them.

Any suggestions? (On particular websites, that is. The means of making this happen are obviously up to me or anyone else seeking to do this.) Heck, I was actually looking around for other large communities of Starcraft players, and having a hard time finding those - the wider tech and gaming scene as a whole isn't one I've been closely involved in, in the last few years, so any pointers would be appreciated.

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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby Lavarinth » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:48 pm

If SC2Mapster did a news post in relations to the negative sides of mapping, it'd garner attention. I make this conclusion simply since the community representatives instantly go to them for any map creation news for Facebook.
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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby Maglok » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:13 am

About EU region. Yes it is 'locked', it is a totally different version and I can only log into the EU forums. :) That is not that strange, or it would confuse the crap outta people.

Regardless I'd like some more mapping options for singleplayer plx!
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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby Kaoru » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:13 am

Maglok wrote:About EU region. Yes it is 'locked', it is a totally different version and I can only log into the EU forums. :) That is not that strange, or it would confuse the crap outta people.

Regardless I'd like some more mapping options for singleplayer plx!

Well, I mean, I'm not so sure, you know? Almost every other game I've ever played, and most of the mods I've worked on and communities I've been a part of, there've been international forums. The way most handled the confusion was to have clearly-marked regional sections, forums and subforums - usually divided by language, rather than nation, which both helped to organize things more coherently for everyone involved, and, in my eyes, lessened the loomin' spectre of nationalism that can sometimes flares up on the Internet.

I mean, let's be frank, here. Most Europeans I've met speak English better than your average American. Most EU school systems have a few years of English as a required subject. And places like Singapore and India and the like, internationally, also have a huge proportion of English-speakers. I guess I'm just sad to hear that, even if it was pretty obvious. Many of my favorite maps were made by people from other countries or regions, some of my best friends in SC1 had never set foot in the U.S. in their lives, and anyone who could handle the ping and the patois was welcome to interact with anyone else. I'm sure I'll adjust, but I think for the richness of the modding and mapping scene in general, the region-locking, especially as it extends to everything, is a huge blow. Thanks for the heads-up, though.

Lavarinth wrote:If SC2Mapster did a news post in relations to the negative sides of mapping, it'd garner attention. I make this conclusion simply since the community representatives instantly go to them for any map creation news for Facebook.

I trundled over to SC2Mapster and buzzed the forums silently, trying to get a feel for the site and figure out who's in charge and who it'd be best to talk to about this sort of thing. I didn't have the best luck (their site layout is not exactly stellar, but they're new, so I'm sure it'll improve with time!) but I'm going to bum along to their IRC chat and see who I can talk to there about maybe getting a constuctively-critical news-post dedicated to the current downfalls inherent in the modding and mapping scene. Only in the spirit of feedback Blizz has engendered, of course, and for the elucidation and education of the average player. ;)

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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby Alevice » Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:34 pm

SCMapsters bing honcho is vjeux. Guy is pretty nice, although the site's TOS (inhreited from curse) leaves a lot to be desired.

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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby Xenon » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:23 am

Lol, progammer used transitioning between maps to make a spoof of the interface.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc1XxwOQmmk


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Re: To all would-be SC2 mappers & modders:

Postby Mr. » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:07 am

I don't think he used transitioning, I think that was all one map. The loading screen just looked like a big image overlay. Still, it was pretty hilarious.

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