Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

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IskatuMesk
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Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:57 am

This is the Starcraft 2 AI at maximum difficulty. I have little reason to believe that the release AI will be much different since the game is already shipping soon and the data gets finalized before that happens (aka gold). Blizzard would not have included the AI in phase 2 if they did not believe it was ready.

It is not ready.

[spoiler]
SMesk_SC2sTerribleTerribleAI-muxed-001.mkv
SMesk_SC2sTerribleTerribleAI-muxed-002.mkv
SMesk_SC2sTerribleTerribleAI-muxed-003.mkv[/spoiler]

This is a small demo I did on some of the sc1 insane AI's created by myself, Myk, Ashara, and Bajadulce. They range in difficulty from strong (Zbathwar) to absolutely insane ("Opium" Hammer, ZAPOC). These were created within the restrictions of the SC1 engine WITHOUT BWAPI. In sc2, creating an insane AI that functions like these, without the sc1 hardcoded issues to stop you, would be very easy if you know Galaxy.

[spoiler]
Starcraft Insane-type Custom AI's 1/6
Starcraft Insane-type Custom AI's 2/6
Starcraft Insane-type Custom AI's 3/6
Starcraft Insane-type Custom AI's 4/6
scAIdemo-005.mkv
scAIdemo-006.mkv[/spoiler]

When it comes to Blizzard games it has always fallen on the end user to fix the mess left behind by lazy developers. In sc2 this will be no different.

However.

Sc2 has one thing that wc3 and sc1 do not have. A largely softcoded AI whos core aspects are very open. After studying the galaxy files for a short time with HKS, I am sure that even I could improve the insane AI to the point of creating a true, genuine killer. It's not something I plan to do any time soon, but it's on my list to attempt in the late future.

I have written up documentation of what I'd do given a chance to make something in sc2's AI, plans I have never forgotten about, merely laid in the backburner. I am not fond of sc2's gameplay, but creating something like ZAPOC could be interesting. However, I'd have to figure out a way to prevent the wasteful APM spam that kills performance before I investigate creating AI.
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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby Maglok » Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:34 am

Have you stopped to consider that mabye Blizzard put more time in single player AI and multiplayer? Take me. I am not a great SC2 player, the insane comp might just woop my ass. Those whose ass it does not woop would prefer to play against real players anyway right?

I am just saying, devision of assets.

I am sure the community will come up with all kinds of good AIs. :)
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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby Rocco » Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:59 am

I actually like playing against computers and found the insane AI rather easy... so I like Mesk's ideas.
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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:39 am

To prevent wasting APM, I believe I did found an APM limit per AI difficulty aspect inside the Data Editor (mostly by accident in an attempt to find game speed stuff that seems to have been removed in Patch 16+).

If the difficulties from Very Easy to Hard range from like 200 to 500 APM of limit. Very Hard has a limit of 2000 while Insane has a limit of 99999 (presuming I am not mistaken).

In the Data Editor, it's under "Gameplay Data" (main) then "Default SC2 Gameplay Settings" then the field "Difficulty Levels - AI Actions per Minute".

EDIT : Oh yeah, for the AI, Bill and I did have trouble with the Insane AI since it ridiculously cheats however the Harder AI (second highest) was cakewalk if you just simply take them seriously.
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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby Xenon » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:51 am

I don't think there was game speed stuff in the data editor. That was probably the "slow-fast-very fast" displays for move and attack speeds that are no longer relevant.

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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby Lavarinth » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:27 am

Anyone can make a cheating insane AI, I'd find it more interesting to see a non-cheating difficult AI based off APM calculations of tournament players, alongside their tactics with a few twists.

I haven't played the AI on the Beta, but when I was at Blizzard months ago, they had all versions of the AI available, and sure enough the Insane AI wasn't as 'insane' as I expected it to be.
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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:59 am

Maglok wrote:Have you stopped to consider that mabye Blizzard put more time in single player AI and multiplayer? Take me. I am not a great SC2 player, the insane comp might just woop my ass. Those whose ass it does not woop would prefer to play against real players anyway right?

I am just saying, devision of assets.

I am sure the community will come up with all kinds of good AIs. :)


I take it you didn't watch the video nor do you understand the meaning of difficulty settings to begin with. "Insane" is not supposed to be an entry-level AI. it's called INSANE, above VERY HARD, for a reason.

Also, Blizzard has a few guys dedicated to the AI. A few terrible guys.
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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby Master Jademus Sreg » Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:38 pm

Ricky is correct; additionally, there are natives which put a cap on APM. Very simple to use.
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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:20 pm

If you cap the APM that way you're going to effect the AI's performance overall. I'm talking about making them EFFICIENT with their APM.
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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby Falchion » Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:50 pm

Mesk, I only concern with AI in single-player.  I don't do so in Battle.Net 2.

It's a waste of time.
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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby Master Jademus Sreg » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:02 pm

I have trouble imagining an AI's APM could be made more efficient with the tools available to us. I can imagine limiting the APM dynamically, in response to the condition of the AI's assets; an AI in battle should be afforded more APM than when it is not in battle and just managing its base. The best bet is to scale the APM to the foreseeable limit of meaningful actions and to direct the AI to make as many meaningful actions as possible.
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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:13 pm

Or you can change how the AI issues commands which seems to be possible and avoid arbitrarily limiting everything.
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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby GreatGodSajuuk » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:28 pm

Falchion wrote:Mesk, I only concern with AI in single-player.  I don't do so in Battle.Net 2.

It's a waste of time.


So Mesk shouldn't do something because you do not intend to use it? Why should he care about that?
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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby Maglok » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:45 pm

If I recall correctly Mesk was not even gonna buy this game. ;)
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Re: Sc2's AI sucks - videos to prove it - future plans

Postby IskatuMesk » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:28 am

Doesn't matter if I buy it or not, Falchion wouldn't be getting the AI if I ever made any anyway. :)
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