SC2 BETA Editor findings

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Ricky_Honejasi
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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:21 am

Maglok wrote:As for triggers there are really some very interesting things we can 'catch', and I love the library support. I can just write a library of functions to use for a campaign and reuse them easily.


I would be very curious to know how it works. I didn't notice that yet it's something that would help me tremendously.

Or at least point me to where I am supposed to find it.

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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby Xenon » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:03 pm

You can set a launch missile to be able to retarget while in flight (has a retarget flag, range, and filters). They only retarget if the original target becomes invalid (dies, etc) and I haven't had any luck finding a workaround to force a retarget. I'm sure this will find use in tower defense games.

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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby Maglok » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:19 am

Ricky_Honejasi wrote:
Maglok wrote:As for triggers there are really some very interesting things we can 'catch', and I love the library support. I can just write a library of functions to use for a campaign and reuse them easily.


I would be very curious to know how it works. I didn't notice that yet it's something that would help me tremendously.

Or at least point me to where I am supposed to find it.


In the trigger editor you usually have a list of triggers on the left and the actual trigger on the right, but you can also activate the library view which will make a core and a libery library show up. Those two are used by blizzard. They contain all their functions, which is kinda neat. Right clicking in it you can 'New library' or 'import'/'export library'. You open that view by going view->Show libraries.

An example is for example the liberty library has a function called 'order workers to gather nearby resources' which you can then 'call', it is quite nice. Though the stuff in there now is all rather strange, and beta like. Basically the triggers you use, use this stuff as well. I can imagine though that if I had like a bunch of heroes in a campaign and I wanted a simple button that gave control of them to the player whenever in any mission I'd write a function that checks which are in that map, then swaps those to the player and generates the sounds and all in one function then I can just call that and voila.
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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby Krazy » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:17 pm

Having just finished downloading it I'm a bit behind.  How exactly do we get the editor?  I thought it would just come with the zillion or so patches but no dice.
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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby IskatuMesk » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:20 pm

Krazy wrote:Having just finished downloading it I'm a bit behind.  How exactly do we get the editor?  I thought it would just come with the zillion or so patches but no dice.


It does. Check sc2 base directory.
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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby Krazy » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:34 pm

IskatuMesk wrote:
Krazy wrote:Having just finished downloading it I'm a bit behind.  How exactly do we get the editor?  I thought it would just come with the zillion or so patches but no dice.


It does. Check sc2 base directory.


Ooooh shiny.

FACT:

My computer runs the editor WAY better than it runs the actual game
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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:08 am

Discovery!

256x256 in sc2 is considerably smaller than wc3 and sc1.

/e

Also, remember when Blizzard said there'd be no arbitrary limit on how many types of tiles/textures you can have in a tileset? They lied, it's 8.

Also I can't seem to get the brush palette to update with my changes to the tileset texture list.

/e

Yep, had to restart the editor to get it to update. +1 Fail Points for Blizzard

Oh, and did I mention I can't manually make cliffs that match the normal natural Jungle cliffs because there doesn't seem to be a rock texture that is the same as those ones? So that arbitrary cliff limitation just buttfucked me twice in one go.

I am not touching this editor again until they fix it. I am not even going to be finishing that video series. Fuck this. This is an insult to the custom content community. There is so many things wrong with the terrain system alone that it's ludicrous. How about trying to make an organic cliff inside a temple one? That's right, it has to generate temple cliffs *first*, THEN you can have your organic pit. Which is... totally broken. Wc3 was leagues ahead of this bro. I can see why single player is taking them so long to finish when they have a disaster like this to work with.
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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby Lavarinth » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:16 am

Really? I thought it felt absurdly big as is, I can't imagine many instances that would require it, especially with the ability to preload a map while in a map, causing an almost instantaneous switch to the next map allowed a more fluid experience similar to that of WC3's TFT Orc campaign.
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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby UntamedLoli » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:54 am

It's easier to just directly modify the xml files than it is to try and do it through the disaster that is the data editor, and at least then I can play them online with other people.
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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:00 am

Lavarinth wrote:Really? I thought it felt absurdly big as is, I can't imagine many instances that would require it, especially with the ability to preload a map while in a map, causing an almost instantaneous switch to the next map allowed a more fluid experience similar to that of WC3's TFT Orc campaign.


There's many instances I can think where a larger size would be useful. Allow me to list some for you!

- FFA maps.

Having a reasonable distance between each player is critical, plus preventing easy cliffing. With shit being so completely mobile in sc2 and terrain having much less of an effect, as a map designer you have to do some pretty creative monkeywork to bring back positional value. This means a lot of cliffs, chokes, and other geometric features. But having a reasonably sized section for 2 players already takes up a huge portion of the map. An 8 player FFA map is virtually impossible without ridiculously tiny rush distances. 14 player FFA's, what I want to make, are a pipedream.

Keep in mind units in sc2 move faster than sc1 and typically have longer range as well. This compounds the smaller map size problem significantly and is also a contributor to the issues of Blizzard's existing maps.

- 4v4 maps.
- RPG maps.

The prospect of fitting a multiplayer RPG of considerable scale in a map this small in scale is truly terrifying and crippling.

The RPG-Campaign maps I want to make for 2042 entail large geometry and fully-functional cities for multiple factions. Again we run into the issue of tight quarters. In my quick experiment I terrained a very basic section using a Command Center as a reference for a medium-sized building. My base took up 2/3 of the upper area of the map and nearly reached into the middle despite having only extremely generic features. No multi-cliff passes, only a handful of ramps and a small amount of water.

I want to avoid falling into the colossal pitfalls of Dawn of War - tiny maps without any space or opportunity for geometry to play a major role in gameplay of melee, mod, or campaign projects. I prefer big maps, I prefer maps with a lot of space and a lot of unique non-symmetrical features to facilitate dynamic gameplay and perhaps some eyecandy to boot.

The transition thing you speak of would not work for any of my "active" RPC maps at all just like it doesn't for wc3.

/e

As an example, that ET3 defense map for wc3 I sent you a while ago would be totally impossible to do in sc2 because of size limitations. There's no way you'd have a city that big in the middle plus the external city and then the demon/orc bases.

I have considered the prospect of rescaling everything... but I think that would introduce a lot more issues, especially in relations to the accuracy of physics, cameras, and such.
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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby RazorclawX » Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:16 pm

IskatuMesk wrote:Discovery!

256x256 in sc2 is considerably smaller than wc3 and sc1.


Not really. The scale in the editor and the scale in-game are apparently different.
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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby Maglok » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:52 pm

You can lock to game view if you want.

Also I wonder if for RPGs you cant just string maps together and play multi, it feels like you could.
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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:15 pm

RazorclawX wrote:
IskatuMesk wrote:Discovery!

256x256 in sc2 is considerably smaller than wc3 and sc1.


Not really. The scale in the editor and the scale in-game are apparently different.


Oh? How so? I placed a command center and did some terraining to get an idea of where things were at. I used the CC as a basis for scale comparisons. Kind of like in wc3 how I stuck castles everywhere.
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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby RazorclawX » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:48 pm

Because the CC is fucking bigger in-game?
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Re: SC2 Editor findings

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:57 pm

So... we're back to square one. Awesome.
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