My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

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My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby Whiplash! » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:49 am

(redirected from a battle.net post)

Hey everyone my name is Whiplash, I am a rank 4 random plat player (could easily hold rank 1 if I just played protoss but who cares about that) that has done many events such as craftcup, omfg, shoutcraft, and am part of vT gaming (http://www.vtgaming.net). I would like to share my thoughts on the current balance issues in Starcraft 2 at this point in time. Everything that I say is back from personal experience from both sides of the balance. I have the most experience with protoss so many of my balance issues will be from their perspective.

As of now, Zerg is the most powerful race, then Protoss, then Terran. The main issue with zerg is that they have a huge production ability mid game and can generally drone hard early game with ease. I am directing the balance issue from a Protoss's perspective, not a Terrans. Popular builds like 4 gate and 3 gate robo have been effective at forcing zerg to get more units early on but now GOOD zergs are learning how to block these timing pushes with relative ease and they leave the Protoss player behind if no economic damage is done. I am pretty sure that something with the inject larve mechanic needs to change to balance this out. In my opinion this is 1 of the most important issues in sc2 atm that I hope the next patch adjusts.

Zerg's mid game army lacks diversity. This is another obvious issue that everyone can see. Zerg's mid game army is roach/hydra in 90%+ of their games. Infestors are rarely used. Corruptors are only used to counter colossi. IN ZvT banelings are sometimes used, but the bulk of the army remains the same ol' Roach/Hydra. Honestly I am not a fan of the roach and I would love for it to be removed and replaced, but it needs to keep zerg balanced through out the game which is easier said then done. If they got an additional tier 2 unit, maybe a specialized unit morphed from the roach that was more of a support unit or caster (and they buffed infestor enough to make it hive tech), then maybe we could see some more diversity.

Protoss templar tech is inferior to robo tech in every matchup. Robos allow you to get observers and immortals off the bat, which are invaluable units in every matchup, and they come quicker then both high templar and dark templar. In addition, both templar units require a lot more gas and time to get operational, and are frail units compared to the colossi and immortal. The Dark Obelisk is a terrible design and it makes no sense to not have dark templar require the templar archives due to the relatively small use that the templar archives gets as of now. High templars are decent vs terran bio armies but in the end robo is just as, if not more effective. Storm is currently not that useful vs zerg due to roach's insane health and the fact that in realistic settings roaches generally only lose 1/3 of their health per storm wave. I don't understand why Blizzard wants Archons to be such a useless unit as well, with all the time and gas you spend just getting templar, it would be nice if Archons at least were a hard counter to 1 unit or had a unique ability.

If you want to make templar tech more appealing then it would be wise to buff storm's damage to make it a viable alternative to robo tech. I think buffing the damage and not bringing back it's old radius is the proper way to buff the spell. I think that Archon's splash radius needs to be significantly increased, so they can give protoss an actual decent counter versus mutalisks. Mutalisks are still a very good vs protoss, especially en masse (but not against terran, so buff a protoss unit to deal with mutalisks not nerf mutalisks). I was also thinking that if you want to give the archon and templars more viability then you could simply give archons a passive which regenerated their health whenever they were hit by templar storms. This would make them a decent tanking unit alternative to the immortal under the right circumstances and encourage more strategic play.

Mauradurs are still too all purpose. I think if their health gets nerfed by 5-10 (along with a nerf to how much stim does to them by 20 to 10) and change their base damage from 10(+10 armored) to 8(+12 armored) they would move away from being an "unholy trinity unit". I would support a change to the immortal's damage values as well if this happened.

Banshee range needs to be nerfed by 2, I believe it is at 6 now and it would be better around 4. It is a very powerful harassment unit that is also great vs ground units, even if they can attack air.

Phoenixes are a cool unit, but are terrible at their job: Anti air. The reason that the corsair was so good at it's job in SC1 is beacuse it had splash damage. Phoenixes need to get scout like anti air damage or splash damage so they can be a decent anti air unit. I wouldn't mind it losing graviton beam (will explain this next) for a support spell, survival spell, or a spell that makes it more effective vs air units.

Remove the Mothership already. Dustin Browder, this isn't battle for middle earth or CnC, we don't want super units. A lot of people want the Arbiter back, and I think something similar, maybe a Dark Arbiter, would be a good fit. Make it's role close to the Arbiter from sc1 (passive cloak and recall) but instead of wormhole give it graviton beam, except it isn't channeled and can pick up massive units.

Reduce force field's radius to about 2/3's of it's current radius. Force field is relied on a LOT by Protoss so I am not sure how bad the nerf will be, but I think it's necessary seeing how good it is at blocking ramps and splitting armies. An alternative would be to have the force fields destructible and have around 500 health.

Have Ultralisks start with the speed ability. I think Ultralisks are currently underused a lot and a buff like this would help them be more useful off the bat.

Make broodlords only spawn 1 broodling per attack. These units are insanely good and I win many battles just because I have a few of them in my army.

Reapers need a re-design. Originally reapers could throw mines on the ground that detonated after a few seconds, but this was taken out. It sounded really powerful but now Reapers have turned into a gimicky unit, used in early game harass and thats it. I think some type of later game upgrade to them to make them viable in mid or late game would be a welcome change to the unit in exchange for having them require an engineering bay to build or increase their build time.

Reduce the cybernetic core's build time by 5-10 seconds to help counter fast reapers. Not needed if Reaper build time or tech requirements is changed.

Move Nydus canal to tier 3, or have it require the infestor pit. I feel that this building is preventing protoss fast expand vs zerg from being viable at all, and a small change like this would allow more longer macro games to take place in this matchup and less 1 base protoss builds.

Set a max amount of scvs that can repair a planetary fortress at once. It is suppose to be a powerful defense structure, not indestructible.

Change storm's graphic to properly reflect the radius of the spell's damage.

Creep should increase health regeneration of zerg units by 1-2 per second, I don't see why they should make zerg units faster since creep provides nourishment to the zerg units. It would also allow the other races to scout the zerg beyond zerglings (and even then its pretty easy to kill workers with lings). Buff the speed of zerg units like the queen to compensate.

Remove that second of delay between hellion attacks. This is incredibly annoying when trying to micro hellions and it would open up a lot more options with hellions if you could micro them better.

That sums up the unit balances I can think of at the moment, but there are still some map issues which I feel are encouraging cheese, 1 base play, and gimmicky play which wouldn't be viable on a good, balanced map. Once map makers get their hands on the editor we can see some new, better balanced maps that I assume will be slightly larger then the average maps used now, more akin to the size of shakuras plateau if it was a 1v1 map. Maps with large ramps, expansions with multiple chokes, and bases with easily breakable back doors are in my opinion bad map design and encourage less solid play and more play focused on abusing map mechanics. Almost every map has something 1 race can abuse, and I hope blizz can get rid of these annoying problems.

That about sums it up, I think the game is awesome and fun to play and I know Blizzard will help make this a successful esport (assuming they heed the community's requests).
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby Mucky » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:32 am

Good post. I'd like to add a couple things.

1) Marauders centralize Terran's gameplay because of its vast health along with its damage and passive slow. 100/25/2 for a unit that is basically a siege tank without siege mode. I don't think your proposed nerf would cut it; as I said in the Patch 8 thread, their health should be brought down to 60 and cost to 50/25/1 or perhaps 75/25/1. More of a redesign than a straight nerf, but I think it would work. They would be more like the rest of Terran's biological tree in acting as glass cannons. No infantry unit should have health that approaches a tank in durability.

2) While I'm on the subject of tanks, they absolutely need to be brought down to 150/100/2. Terran has enough gas troubles, and 3 supply for the tank is ludicrous.

3) If Banshees get their range nerfed, I'd say their speed would need a buff in return. They are way too slow and can easily be chased down with ground units.

4) Brood Lords shouldn't spawn broodlings at all. They're already powerful, and to boot they have 275 HP, far more than the SC1 guardian. The broodlings seem more like a novelty than anything, considering its already unique role as an air-based siege unit.

5) Mutalisk needs to have something to morph into.

6) Zerg needs a second caster.

Can't comment on Protoss, since I don't really play them and you've already said everything that needed to be said about them.

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Re: My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:09 pm

why on earth would you nerf banshees? Seriously, you can totally shut down Banshees with stalkers for like 1/3 the cost of his banshees and tech if even... and that was before Stalkers got their damage buff vs banshees. Or you can... build a cannon. If you see a Terran wall you just go fast obs... hey look, a starport! This Terran's dead. Coupled with the fact that Terran have some hatred against getting Ravens, you should never have any kind of problem against them. Unless it's metalopolis I guess, but that's an idiotic map no matter how you look at it.

You could always get a single Phoenix but I think making a Stargate at this point in SC2's gameplay is utterly pointless unless you start immediately making carriers.

If you nerf their range at least make them cost effective vs anti-air because as it is they are stupidly expensive and cost 3 supply for basically a flying vulture without any kind of utility. The only reason they are viable at all is because Blizzard keeps reducing build times when it's the units themselves that need buffs. Hellions should be the primary harassment unit, but they're not - they need a 150/150 upgrade to do anything decent vs workers and after that they are still totally useless against anything else except slowlots.

Make broodlords only spawn 1 broodling per attack.


ummm they spawn 1 broodling per attack bro but ok ^_^ now the broodlings having 30 hp is a bit silly

Marauders need a complete and total redesign just like Roaches do.
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Re: My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby Xenon » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:25 pm

Interesting post, but...

Maps with large ramps, expansions with multiple chokes, and bases with easily breakable back doors are in my opinion bad map design and encourage less solid play and more play focused on abusing map mechanics.


What kind of map variety is allowed then? Does every single map in the game have to have a main with a single, thin, choke that's also a ramp to a one-choke natural expansion?


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Re: My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby Lavarinth » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:47 pm

Technically all of those maps have "choke points" they just vary in size. To avoid choke points you'd have to play on a flat plane.
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Re: My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby Alevice » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:09 pm

Base chocke points. Y' know those that protect yo house from hobos by putting barracks and shit, a practice that seems to be a must in sc2.

The ramp choke entrance is not a bad layout per se, but if the entire balance is meausred against that type of map, the game has a serious flaw.
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Re: My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby Falchion » Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:01 pm

(redirected from a battle.net post)

Plz, require copyright privileges.  LOL, just kidding...  :)
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Re: My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby Whiplash! » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:35 pm

Ya let me change what I meant about broodlords, They can save up 2 attacks if they dont attack for a bit, and this should not be allowed. The broodlings should have less health or very low/next to no collision.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby Xenon » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:57 pm

What of the maps? I'm still not entirely sure what you meant.

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Re: My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby IskatuMesk » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:00 am

In short, Blizzard's map design is partly to blame for sc2's weakness in gameplay right now. ESPORTS Towers, extremely short travel distances and extremely punishing base design encourage short, cheesy games. I talk about it in some of my videos.
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Re: My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby Mucky » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:20 am

Hopefully that will change when the editor is released and people with a sense of balance and innovation can make maps, including 3v3/4v4 maps.

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Re: My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby IskatuMesk » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:53 am

Yeah, but Blizzard will have control over tournament map pools, so chances are they're going to force their own maps on people and the odd one or two user-made map they think is any good.
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Re: My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby Mucky » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:25 am

oh right just like war3

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Re: My suggestions for sc2 balance at the moment.

Postby chris » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:24 pm

Whiplash! wrote:Hey everyone my name is Whiplash

No, your name is manditz.
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