Patch 3

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Re: Patch 3

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:41 am

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Re: Patch 3

Postby Lavarinth » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:00 pm

Hercanic wrote:Hydr-a-lisk
Mut-a-lisk
Ultr-a-lisk

So if anything, it'd have to be a Roachalisk.

Honestly, though, I'm fine with the name Roach. The monosyllabic word is short, simple, and connotates everything the unit is. A real roach is sneaky, able to slip between cracks and pop up in your home when you least suspect it. The skittering bug is vile, but a hearty survivor.

When you are naming something, you want to evoke an emotion and (particularly in an RTS) communicate as much as possible about the unit in a simple way. Very few unit names in Starcraft are completely made-up. They usually have a basis in something, which communicates its role, function, or flavor. The Carrier, Observer, Larva, Overlord, Queen, Siege Tank, Battlecruiser, etc, are all plain English words. A name like Firebat, which is Starcraft's own term, still has a very overt meaning with the prefix fire-.

In short, I don't see the name Roach as differing from Starcraft's established conventions.


Counter. Roach is not within the established convention for Zerg. All units in StarCraft (1) were named after either their standard race naming convention (-lisk, -ling), their position within the swarm (which is relative to that of insects, such as drone, queen, overlord, larva, etc), or their function (defiler, devourer). The only odd fit was Scourge, which by definition could fit: a cause of affliction or calamity.

The name Roach is not a function, rather a layman's term for a cockroach, or an insect of the Blattaria order. (Shamelessly ripped off Wikipedia.) They are a species, not a rank or role in their colony (which is virtually nonexistent in most cases). To add to that, we all flail around about how they will survive a nuclear holocaust- Truth is, they might but will also die from radiation, leaving the fruit fly to world the world. They are named after the misconception of their regeneration abilities which is also false.

Dread and I had this discussion and he made an excellent point- WHO names these units in the universe? In all likelihood the Terrans do. These are the names given to the Zerg and the Protoss by the Terran. Personally, though this may be true, I doubt such naming would come from some redneck back-watered soldier who first discovered it. In that case, Zerglings would be called dogs as seen in various cases in the universe. Units would be named by higher-ups, scientists. And I doubt in all cases, that they would opt for a name as simplistic and ridiculous as Roach due to its ability to regenerate at increased speeds.

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Re: Patch 3

Postby Taeradun » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:29 pm

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Re: Patch 3

Postby thebrowncloud » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:26 pm

Lavarinth wrote:Dread and I had this discussion and he made an excellent point- WHO names these units in the universe? In all likelihood the Terrans do. These are the names given to the Zerg and the Protoss by the Terran. Personally, though this may be true, I doubt such naming would come from some redneck back-watered soldier who first discovered it. In that case, Zerglings would be called dogs as seen in various cases in the universe. Units would be named by higher-ups, scientists. And I doubt in all cases, that they would opt for a name as simplistic and ridiculous as Roach due to its ability to regenerate at increased speeds.
I think the terrans named some of the units, but not all of them. Drones, overlords, and hydralisks(?) are ones that I remember zerg characters mentioning during the SC and BW campaigns, but a lot of other ones are never called by name unless terrans say them. In the 2nd book, Shadow of the Xel'Naga, Duke named the new strain of when the dog got infested the "Roverlisk."  ::)

It's hard to say because the protoss don't even call the zerg by their strain names that much either. Cerebrates and the Overmind are usually as far as they go in classifying them. Terrans go all out. I wouldn't even be surprised if the Mothership is also a name that the terrans came up with. It just doesn't sound protoss-y...

But, back to the unit at hand, it seems that a lot of the discoveries surrounding the new zerg strains is based on scientists exposing soldiers to them as tests. They did it for changelings and they did it for banelings. It's likely they did it for roaches, too. Maybe the names for these units have their origins in what the troops want to call them, since they get to see them first. And since most marines are nearly brain-dead, neurally resocialized apes, the lack of creativity and reason for the names would be explained in this case.
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Re: Patch 3

Postby Xenon » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:44 pm

thebrowncloud wrote:It's hard to say because the protoss don't even call the zerg by their strain names that much either. Cerebrates and the Overmind are usually as far as they go in classifying them.


"There is a Zergling in this tank!" - Zeratul

And Roverlisk... lol. "Dogdralisk" is better IMO.

Also of note: -lisk is not a real suffix. "Hydralisk" is a combination of the mythical monsters hydra and basilisk, and apparently Blizzard liked the -lisk ending enough to put it on two more units. "Basilisk" comes from Greek basilískos ( basil(eús) king + -iskos diminutive suffix ), which also means princeling. So basically -isk means the same as -ling, go figure.  ;)

Edit: I seem to remember some of Starcraft's internal files referring to the mutalisk as "mutalid", showing they changed it to -lisk later.
Last edited by Xenon on Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Patch 3

Postby Thalraxal » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:17 pm

thebrowncloud wrote:
Lavarinth wrote:Dread and I had this discussion and he made an excellent point- WHO names these units in the universe? In all likelihood the Terrans do. These are the names given to the Zerg and the Protoss by the Terran. Personally, though this may be true, I doubt such naming would come from some redneck back-watered soldier who first discovered it. In that case, Zerglings would be called dogs as seen in various cases in the universe. Units would be named by higher-ups, scientists. And I doubt in all cases, that they would opt for a name as simplistic and ridiculous as Roach due to its ability to regenerate at increased speeds.
I think the terrans named some of the units, but not all of them. Drones, overlords, and hydralisks(?) are ones that I remember zerg characters mentioning during the SC and BW campaigns, but a lot of other ones are never called by name unless terrans say them. In the 2nd book, Shadow of the Xel'Naga, Duke named the new strain of when the dog got infested the "Roverlisk."  ::)

It's hard to say because the protoss don't even call the zerg by their strain names that much either. Cerebrates and the Overmind are usually as far as they go in classifying them. Terrans go all out. I wouldn't even be surprised if the Mothership is also a name that the terrans came up with. It just doesn't sound protoss-y...

But, back to the unit at hand, it seems that a lot of the discoveries surrounding the new zerg strains is based on scientists exposing soldiers to them as tests. They did it for changelings and they did it for banelings. It's likely they did it for roaches, too. Maybe the names for these units have their origins in what the troops want to call them, since they get to see them first. And since most marines are nearly brain-dead, neurally resocialized apes, the lack of creativity and reason for the names would be explained in this case.


I think the Zerg names have been for the most part made up by Terran Scientists studying the Zerg (the Brood Names at the very least have that origin).  If The Overmind or a Cerebrate uses the unit name, I suspect it's just for ease of use so that we the player/reader knows what the heck they're talking about.  I kind of doubt that the original Zerg Swarm used a language that we'd actually understand what with being a Hive Mind and all that.

The best reasoning for the Roach's terrible, terrible name would be that it did get nicknamed by the front line troops before getting classified by the scientists, and so the name Roach stuck.  After all, the Confederacy had been studying the SC1 era Zerg Swarm for quite a while before the game actually began, while Kerrigan and the SC2 era Zerg Swarm probably isn't going to give the Dominion that chance.  Clearly, this is all Mengsk's fault.

Of course, that would only make sense if there were cockroaches were common creatures living on planets lightyears or so away from Earth.  I suppose there could of been a cockroach infestation on one of the Colony Ships the UPL sent from Earth (the real reason for their malfunction revealed?)...  Then again, it could have been some know-it-all scientist trying to make an obscure reference to some Earth-born species that they'd never seen before, but had a reputation for never dying.

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Re: Patch 3

Postby thebrowncloud » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:33 pm

Xenon wrote:
thebrowncloud wrote:It's hard to say because the protoss don't even call the zerg by their strain names that much either. Cerebrates and the Overmind are usually as far as they go in classifying them.


"There is a Zergling in this tank!" - Zeratul.

It does happen from time to time, true, but very rarely. Certainly not as much as terrans say the names. Especially in the books.

Xenon wrote:And Roverlisk... lol. "Dogdralisk" is better IMO.

Anything is better than Roverlisk. It was at that moment that I realized the SC universe is a much better place without Duke.

Xenon wrote:Also of note: -lisk is not a real suffix. "Hydralisk" is a combination of the mythical monsters hydra and basilisk, and apparently Blizzard liked the -lisk ending enough to put it on two more units. "Basilisk" comes from Greek basilískos ( basil(eús) king + -iskos diminutive suffix ), which also means princeling. So basically -isk means the same as -ling, go figure.  ;)

Edit: I seem to remember some of Starcraft's internal files referring to the mutalisk as "mutalid", showing they changed it to -lisk later.
That's interesting. I wonder if Blizz knew that and were like "You know what? Hydraling, mutaling, and ultraling sound far too adorable. Let's go with "-lisk." Basically the same thing." Nice catch!  :)

I saw that mutalid thing, too. I personally believe it was just a typo, but it may have been a name change. Blizzard has had a rocky track-record with editors. Queen of Blades had an absolutely obsurd amount of typos in it, so it wouldn't surprise me if this was one as well.

Thalraxal wrote:
I think the Zerg names have been for the most part made up by Terran Scientists studying the Zerg (the Brood Names at the very least have that origin).  If The Overmind or a Cerebrate uses the unit name, I suspect it's just for ease of use so that we the player/reader knows what the heck they're talking about.  I kind of doubt that the original Zerg Swarm used a language that we'd actually understand what with being a Hive Mind and all that.

The best reasoning for the Roach's terrible, terrible name would be that it did get nicknamed by the front line troops before getting classified by the scientists, and so the name Roach stuck.  After all, the Confederacy had been studying the SC1 era Zerg Swarm for quite a while before the game actually began, while Kerrigan and the SC2 era Zerg Swarm probably isn't going to give the Dominion that chance.  Clearly, this is all Mengsk's fault.

Of course, that would only make sense if there were cockroaches were common creatures living on planets lightyears or so away from Earth.  I suppose there could of been a cockroach infestation on one of the Colony Ships the UPL sent from Earth (the real reason for their malfunction revealed?)...  Then again, it could have been some know-it-all scientist trying to make an obscure reference to some Earth-born species that they'd never seen before, but had a reputation for never dying.
True enough about the language thing, but you could also say that about the protoss. This really is a tough one. Hmmmmm...

The part about the Confederacy reminded me of something: the first zerg strains discovered were by the Confederacy and were studied by scientists behind closed doors. That would make them a lot less likely to be named by any Jim Schmaynor and give them the more purposeful, scinetific names that they have. It seems that the methods for classifying zerg strains has changed since the Dominion started, but that could either be because of the new government, the zerg is now in the public eye, or both.

As for Earth-born insects, ants are the only known common species that Earth and the Koprulu Sector have, but I think that was just an anomoly of common evolution, not space-traveling bugs.
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Re: Patch 3

Postby RazorclawX » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:48 pm

Protoss are a telepathic race. While they do have a written language and stuff, generally in sci-fi stories a creature with telepathic communication usually communicate with ideas rather than words, so they can convey the same message to difference races and they'll interpret it in their own way according to how their mind is set up.

So basically Zeratul calling it a Zergling is mostly for our benefit because that's how we interpret the critter.
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Re: Patch 3

Postby thebrowncloud » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:05 pm

RazorclawX wrote:Protoss are a telepathic race. While they do have a written language and stuff, generally in sci-fi stories a creature with telepathic communication usually communicate with ideas rather than words, so they can convey the same message to difference races and they'll interpret it in their own way according to how their mind is set up.

So basically Zeratul calling it a Zergling is mostly for our benefit because that's how we interpret the critter.
True enough about Zeratul, but the fact that it is interpretted as "zergling" confirms that the protoss differentiate between and name the strains as well. They may not, however, represent the same things that the scientists who named the strains intended. Where a terran mind would associate a name befitting a lesser strain of zerg, the protoss name for a zergling could be interpretted as a scoutting creature or a creature that works in large groups.

In terms of the language, I slightly disagree. Although they are telepathic, they do have a "spoken" language that they use as well: Khalani. This is where all the "En taro _______" and "Adun torridas" sayings come from. If it were just supposed to be an interprettation for the terrans and player, there would be no point in having Khalani exist and the protoss would just say "In the name of _________" or "Adun hide you." I had never really thought about it until now, but I guess the way protoss could do it is they probe the mind of whoever they are addressing for the appropriate lexicon to use, then communicate in turn. At least in the books, there are different situations in which sometimes the protoss will "speak" with terrans and other times they send them images, emotions, or ideas.
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Re: Patch 3

Postby RazorclawX » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:52 pm

thebrowncloud wrote:In terms of the language, I slightly disagree. Although they are telepathic, they do have a "spoken" language that they use as well: Khalani. This is where all the "En taro _______" and "Adun torridas" sayings come from. If it were just supposed to be an interprettation for the terrans and player, there would be no point in having Khalani exist and the protoss would just say "In the name of _________" or "Adun hide you."


In this case it is interpreted as it is, the Protoss greeting-- its literal meaning is otherwise unimportant whereas the expression is. Interpreting an abstract concept isn't the same as interpreting a literal concept.
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Re: Patch 3

Postby Xelxiuz » Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:46 am

The only thing Zeratul will communicate with everyone about the roach is "Overpowered !@#$%" when he finds out he can't one shot them and maybe not even two shot if the stupid thing is burrowed.

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Re: Patch 3

Postby IskatuMesk » Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:49 am

The real reason the MAGIC ARTIFACTS are the KEY TO THE END OF ALL THINGS is because they made the Zerg figure out how to make Roaches and just burrow them inside people's bases and deny base construction.
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Re: Patch 3

Postby Xelxiuz » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:43 am

MY HIGH YIELD WAS DENIED NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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Re: Patch 3

Postby Church » Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:07 pm

thebrowncloud wrote:In terms of the language, I slightly disagree. Although they are telepathic, they do have a "spoken" language that they use as well: Khalani. This is where all the "En taro _______" and "Adun torridas" sayings come from. If it were just supposed to be an interprettation for the terrans and player, there would be no point in having Khalani exist and the protoss would just say "In the name of _________" or "Adun hide you." I had never really thought about it until now, but I guess the way protoss could do it is they probe the mind of whoever they are addressing for the appropriate lexicon to use, then communicate in turn. At least in the books, there are different situations in which sometimes the protoss will "speak" with terrans and other times they send them images, emotions, or ideas.


I'm not sure that's exactly how it works. I always thought in the Protoss campaigns, when talking to other Protoss they were always speaking Khalani, just most of it was translated for the players benefit. I dunno, that's what I always thought.
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Re: Patch 3

Postby thebrowncloud » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:14 pm

RazorclawX wrote:
thebrowncloud wrote:In terms of the language, I slightly disagree. Although they are telepathic, they do have a "spoken" language that they use as well: Khalani. This is where all the "En taro _______" and "Adun torridas" sayings come from. If it were just supposed to be an interprettation for the terrans and player, there would be no point in having Khalani exist and the protoss would just say "In the name of _________" or "Adun hide you."


In this case it is interpreted as it is, the Protoss greeting-- its literal meaning is otherwise unimportant whereas the expression is. Interpreting an abstract concept isn't the same as interpreting a literal concept.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there isn't much point in having special ways of saying certain things for the protoss if everything is communicated through transmitting an idea as opposed to language. If "En taro Adun" is actually just an idea used for a relgious greeting/goodbye, they might as well cut out the middle man of Khalani and just have it be interpretted as "In the name of Adun, welcome/farewell."
Jim_Raynor wrote:I'm not sure that's exactly how it works. I always thought in the Protoss campaigns, when talking to other Protoss they were always speaking Khalani, just most of it was translated for the players benefit. I dunno, that's what I always thought.
If this were indeed the case, they would have to seemlessly transition to a form of communcation that humans or even zerg characters could understand whenever they show up.At that point it gets too complicated. The way I see it, Khalani is more of a series of phrases and proverbs that are represented in more specific instances and people more than ideas in general.Many of them reference historical figures, while others mention castes, etc. All stuff specific to protoss culture that outsiders wouldn't necessarily understand.

Well this discussion has certainly taken a tangent. First the patch (which has nothing to do with roaches), to roach rushing/counters, to naming zerg units, to protoss speech and communication. Funny how a gameplay thread can be taken into a lore direction reasonably easily.
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