Patch 3

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Re: Patch 3

Postby Thalraxal » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:26 pm

thebrowncloud wrote:
RazorclawX wrote:
thebrowncloud wrote:In terms of the language, I slightly disagree. Although they are telepathic, they do have a "spoken" language that they use as well: Khalani. This is where all the "En taro _______" and "Adun torridas" sayings come from. If it were just supposed to be an interprettation for the terrans and player, there would be no point in having Khalani exist and the protoss would just say "In the name of _________" or "Adun hide you."


In this case it is interpreted as it is, the Protoss greeting-- its literal meaning is otherwise unimportant whereas the expression is. Interpreting an abstract concept isn't the same as interpreting a literal concept.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there isn't much point in having special ways of saying certain things for the protoss if everything is communicated through transmitting an idea as opposed to language. If "En taro Adun" is actually just an idea used for a relgious greeting/goodbye, they might as well cut out the middle man of Khalani and just have it be interpretted as "In the name of Adun, welcome/farewell."
Jim_Raynor wrote:I'm not sure that's exactly how it works. I always thought in the Protoss campaigns, when talking to other Protoss they were always speaking Khalani, just most of it was translated for the players benefit. I dunno, that's what I always thought.
If this were indeed the case, they would have to seemlessly transition to a form of communcation that humans or even zerg characters could understand whenever they show up.At that point it gets too complicated. The way I see it, Khalani is more of a series of phrases and proverbs that are represented in more specific instances and people more than ideas in general.Many of them reference historical figures, while others mention castes, etc. All stuff specific to protoss culture that outsiders wouldn't necessarily understand.

Well this discussion has certainly taken a tangent. First the patch (which has nothing to do with roaches), to roach rushing/counters, to naming zerg units, to protoss speech and communication. Funny how a gameplay thread can be taken into a lore direction reasonably easily.


I think the real reason is that Blizzard wanted to give the Protoss some memorable non-english phrases than for any logical, Protoss lingustic reasons.  Kinda like the Orcish "Dabu" of WarCraft II.

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Re: Patch 3

Postby thebrowncloud » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:39 pm

Thalraxal wrote:I think the real reason is that Blizzard wanted to give the Protoss some memorable non-english phrases than for any logical, Protoss lingustic reasons.  Kinda like the Orcish "Dabu" of WarCraft II.
Most likely, that's right. Giving races really unique phrases like the ones the protoss and orc have (or even the night elves) really sets them apart from humans and gives them their own feel. The protoss are perfectly capable of saying everything they say in regular words, but giving them their own mini language gives them a unique culture.

Back on the interprettation note, I think protoss might actually be capable of communicating in both ideas and language. In the Dark Templar Saga books the main character, Jake Ramsey, is told by protoss the literal meaning of a couple Khalani sayings in English and he is also able to quote them word-for-word when he needs to explain something to other terrans. But the protoss that he is hosting in his head (long story) shows him a bunch of memories that other protoss have had in a first-person scenario, transmits waves of emotions in place of facial expressions or body language, and is even able to show him things that she has witnessed through mental imaging. Those books were actually a really good representation of protoss culture as a whole if anyone was interested. Definitely the most entertaining of the novels.
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Re: Patch 3

Postby Death_Wing » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:56 pm

I only have the first one and couldn't get my hand on the others.
What?


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Re: Patch 3

Postby Xelxiuz » Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:13 pm

thebrowncloud wrote:
Thalraxal wrote:I think the real reason is that Blizzard wanted to give the Protoss some memorable non-english phrases than for any logical, Protoss lingustic reasons.  Kinda like the Orcish "Dabu" of WarCraft II.
Most likely, that's right. Giving races really unique phrases like the ones the protoss and orc have (or even the night elves) really sets them apart from humans and gives them their own feel. The protoss are perfectly capable of saying everything they say in regular words, but giving them their own mini language gives them a unique culture.

Back on the interprettation note, I think protoss might actually be capable of communicating in both ideas and language. In the Dark Templar Saga books the main character, Jake Ramsey, is told by protoss the literal meaning of a couple Khalani sayings in English and he is also able to quote them word-for-word when he needs to explain something to other terrans. But the protoss that he is hosting in his head (long story) shows him a bunch of memories that other protoss have had in a first-person scenario, transmits waves of emotions in place of facial expressions or body language, and is even able to show him things that she has witnessed through mental imaging. Those books were actually a really good representation of protoss culture as a whole if anyone was interested. Definitely the most entertaining of the novels.


Entertaining yes, but world breaking? Even more so. SC1 had this gritty feel that regardless of how powerful each entity was, they were never enough to conquer an army. Kerrigan's true power is in her ability to control the swarm, not the fact that she's a 400 hp 50 damage monster with the best mix of spells in SC1.

Now out comes this Dark Archon asshole who basically goes just goes "Who said DAs never had a standard attack?" and proceeds to steam roll people at the SPEED OF THOUGHT. Somehow he jobs and will probably have to wait for AFTER TEN THOUSAND YEARS I'M FINALLY FREE, IT'S TIME TO CONQUER EARTH! The guy is literally a perfect example of a raid boss if they ever make a SC MMO.

Then of course, we have crazy energy creatures, that are supposedly like the legendary birds of pokemon or something except they are flying/energy instead of some elemental type. The comparison would be as if these creatures were level 100, while the entire protoss race combined is made up of maybe 50-80 level 2 zubats and geodudes. That's messed up.

And then the slight spoiler on the Xel Naga agenda, which while interesting, makes me wonder why a novel trilogy is capable of advancing a universe's plot more than the entire TBC expansion. I mean it's great for the readers, but what happens when you choose to input or neglect this content in SC2? Either way, one crowd gets pissed. The prospect of Blizzard designing the story to accommodate both parties of players will be interesting. I say this because a lot of other SC novels out there either talk about Nova and basically don't really affect the SC verse all that much in a "WTF" way, or it's a side story about characters that will die by the end of the episode.

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Re: Patch 3

Postby thebrowncloud » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:55 pm

Wow! I'm actually in total shock that someone else on here has actually read so far into the SC novels! Which ones have you read?

Anyway, I see your point with the DTS books. Ulrezaj was really pushing the boundaries of the universe, but I wouldn't go as far as to say he breaks them. Ulrezaj and the energy beings serve the same purpose, but in polar opposite ways. The fact that Ulrezaj was able to sustain himself in dark archon form, let alone create himself out of 7 other protoss, was a substantial statement as to how powerful something in the SC universe can be. His methods were ancienct, forbidden, and, most importantly, unnatural. The energy beings, however, show the contrast to him with a testament of natural power. They are formed from the essence of beings and pose no actual will to harm anything. They are capable of reflecting weapons back on their wielders, but it doesn't appear that was their goal. The two of them show that there are things in the SC universe that are far larger than the protoss, zerg, or terran alone. They are comparable to the Overmind if he were actually able to assume a body that could move, yet I don't think the energy creatures have the ability to create their own individual schemes, since they serve a greater purpose.

The DTS trilogy is supposed to serve as a segway into the greater plot of SC2. All of the books that seem to have an impact on the future do the same thing. Blizzard has said there will be references to the books that will appease the readers, but SC2 is a standalone story. If you think about it, DTS changed very little in the grand scheme of things:
[spoiler]Valerian and Zeratul know what is going to happen, the Hierarchy is capable of being forced to make a decision, Kerrigan can at least get lucky at making sentient infested terrans if not create them at will, and Aiur is now seemingly void of protoss survivors (which we never knew there were any in the first place). The single greatest thing that has changed is that the Tal'Darim have seemingly rooted themselves in the Xel'Naga Temple on Shakuras without anyone noticing. Ulrezaj may have been sealed away, but we certainly haven't seen the last of what he created.[/spoiler]

I get confused sometimes when I read what people have to say about the novels and such. Everyone has been eagerly awaiting SC2 and a lot of them are looking forward to the story of the game being continued, but a lot of the feedback on the books seems negative when this is pretty much what they wanted. Do you like the books and the way they portray the universe or would your rather it not be as elaborate and complex as it is now? Do you think they should have done it differently?

P.S. By "TBC," do you mean The Burning Crusade? Just making sure, cause I'm not much of a WarCraft player and that acronym can mean a lot of things (thebrowncloud included).
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Re: Patch 3

Postby Maglok » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:26 am

I've read just as far into the SC novels. ;)

I am still kinda hoping they bundle the DT trilogy in a compilation though! GIEF!
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Re: Patch 3

Postby Xelxiuz » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:09 am

TBC = The Burning Crusade

I don't have an opinion of the novels yet (hint hint), I simply feel it's somewhat wrong to introduce a new tier of power levels into a universe through something like novels when your main pipeline is video games.

Best example is like, Beast Wars. Remember that show? Remember how the toys had some stupid comics with them that clearly had a different whacked out story? Hell I think cereal boxes had these too. Now imagine if that comic actually contains a chapter that directly influences and changes the TV show, but the TV show only references that one chapter instead of actually making their own explanation. Like say....

Episode 34

Narrator: "The Maximals and Predacons are forced into a stalemate as each side is unwilling to leave their trenches in fear of being shot, but the energon here isn't very stable, what will happen? Tune in next time for BEAST WARRSSSS"

Episode 35

Cheetor: "Guys, Rat Trap just upgraded into Unicron, what's going on?"

Megatron: "GOD DAMN CHEERIOS"

Because that's different than being innovative, or creative. It's literally introducing and injecting new facts into the story. Look at the Xel Naga agenda for example. If this trilogy had not existed, you can guess all you want and have zero proof what the Xel Naga's plans are, only hunches. But now? It's a fact. I mean the details aren't there, but the plans are set in stone. There's no more "mystery" to it anymore, and this mystery was solved through a medium that wasn't the main channel of Blizzard.

I can forgive Mr Red Ball of Death, because he was introduced in additional maps, and no one really could tell whether or not it was canon. Cause if we are gonna take every Blizzard map out there seriously, Planet Santa or whatever is real, the Zergrinch is real, and by god he is invincible. Are you telling me some day when StarCraft Universes come out, that the most bad ass entity is some defiler who's angry at Santa Claus?

But yeah, overall, there's a million reasons why this "breaks immersion", but I don't have that much of a problem with it, since I for one have never felt Blizzard is particularly strong at story telling. In fact, with my standards, no Blizzard franchise even makes enough sense to become a fictional world, but all of that has more to do with how stupid every character is regardless of their IQ level and what not, and has nothing to do with this case here of game mechanics, metaverse rules, and what not.

Hell they somewhat did this with Wc2->Wc3. It's like OH NOEZ THE DARK PORTAL IS BWEAKING, WE R DOOMED.

Wc3 pops out and it's like "Hi I'm Ner'zuhl...and I'm an icicle now"

Except in this case, I do believe there was simply no explanation from any other medium or product by Blizzard prior to Wc3, and therefore the "shock/freshness" value was still there. Still, I didn't like how they transitioned from Wc2->Wc3 all that much either.

I'll stop for now, since I'm rambling and it's late.

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Re: Patch 3

Postby Maglok » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:23 am

The books and other media are in addition to the ingame lore. They already stated that the game is playable quite nicely on it's own. That said, a universe should not be limited to a media.

A perfect example is how Joss Whedon took Buffy season 1-7 to TV, but season 8 is a comic and the official continuation.
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Re: Patch 3

Postby Xelxiuz » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:51 am

What they say and what's reality is completely different. That perfect example would only apply if they made a season 9 back on TV (Maybe make it HDTV Ohhhhhh) and continued off of season 8 comic and had zero catch up episodes for the general audience who never read the comic.

And my point is that it is possible to pull it off, but how likely is it? Not very. Will it please the main market? Sure. Will the story live up to today's standards when literary classics are now actually in danger of being replaced by a superior remake on a different medium in the future? No. Did it have that potential? Yes.

Don't take this as me complaining, I don't care enough about SC verse to affect me in any way. I'm simply looking at it from a min/max POV, kind of like how the current state of Beta would still make SC2 fairly awesome, but it won't immediately begin to be hailed as the legitimate successor of SC1 as a competitive game.

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Re: Patch 3

Postby thebrowncloud » Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:01 pm

Well, if it really came down to it, Blizzard can always pull a Star Wars and start the game off with a giant wall of text to bring everyone up to speed. Multi-media sci-fi series have this kind of problem all the time. The solution is to make the side medias tie into the main media, yet be just far enough away to be a stand-alone. Just like the Star Wars books, the SC books add information to key characters and plot themes, but people who watch the Star Wars movies don't need to read the books to know what's going on. The books are really just for people who want to see more of the universe, not see exactly what happens next so they'll be able to understand the future. I see your concern and am even worried a little myself about how much book they will put in, but I don't think it's going to be as big of a problem as you're making it seem.
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Re: Patch 3

Postby Thalraxal » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:14 pm

thebrowncloud wrote:Well, if it really came down to it, Blizzard can always pull a Star Wars and start the game off with a giant wall of text to bring everyone up to speed. Multi-media sci-fi series have this kind of problem all the time. The solution is to make the side medias tie into the main media, yet be just far enough away to be a stand-alone. Just like the Star Wars books, the SC books add information to key characters and plot themes, but people who watch the Star Wars movies don't need to read the books to know what's going on. The books are really just for people who want to see more of the universe, not see exactly what happens next so they'll be able to understand the future. I see your concern and am even worried a little myself about how much book they will put in, but I don't think it's going to be as big of a problem as you're making it seem.


If worst comes to worst, Blizzard will just retcon everything for everyone, so we'll all be in the dark. :P

As long Blizzard handles combining out of game content in StarCraft II better than they've handled it in World of WarCraft, I'm happy (see: Varian Wrynn's sudden return and the entire plot surrounding Sartharian and the Obsidian Sanctum which is never actually mentioned in game).


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Re: Patch 3

Postby Xelxiuz » Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:21 pm

thebrowncloud wrote:Well, if it really came down to it, Blizzard can always pull a Star Wars and start the game off with a giant wall of text to bring everyone up to speed. Multi-media sci-fi series have this kind of problem all the time. The solution is to make the side medias tie into the main media, yet be just far enough away to be a stand-alone. Just like the Star Wars books, the SC books add information to key characters and plot themes, but people who watch the Star Wars movies don't need to read the books to know what's going on. The books are really just for people who want to see more of the universe, not see exactly what happens next so they'll be able to understand the future. I see your concern and am even worried a little myself about how much book they will put in, but I don't think it's going to be as big of a problem as you're making it seem.


KOTOR did that, Void of the Force, Revan being the opposite, True Sith, etc etc.

Thing is though, Lucasarts already ruined it because they expanded to so many mediums at once, it's not the same situation as Blizzard. If Coca Cola made a movie about Soda, maybe that would be a more appropriate comparison, but as it is, it's not fair to compare.

That said, while KOTOR introduced huge elements that excited AND enraged fans depending on their stance (AKA the problem I'm predicting), they also addressed it by using TOR to say "THIS IS CANON BITCHES". TOR is catered to KOTOR first, SW episode 1-6 second. There's no Blizzard product that does this for SC2, because SC2 is catering to SC1, not the novels. Not sure if you get what I mean, but I don't wanna wall text any more than I have to. Basically if Ghost came out for Xbox, then that would be the TOR for the Ghost novel's KOTOR.

While I'm not sure about DTS, 2 things came out that were completely positive for KOTOR/SW, that is HK-47, and Revan clearly being the overall most capable humanoid to ever exist in the history of SW. The man is literally Yagami Raito pre L, and has enough trap cards coming out of his ass to make Yugi cry.

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Re: Patch 3

Postby Maglok » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:20 am

For the wikia, which is good enough for me, this is canon: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_Wiki:Canon_policy

I tend to stick with their suggestions when considering SC stuff.

Also, really what big setting that is written by more then one person doesn't have contradictions? And with more then one person I mean a setting where all the info can't go by one person to fact check it.

For WoW's draenei gameplay reasons trumped lore, that is quite different. :) They wanted a pretty enough race, so they changed the lore. A bit heavy handed I admit.
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Re: Patch 3

Postby Xelxiuz » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:07 pm

That's not even the point. DTS trilogy does not contradict anything. It's about how the contents and new boundaries were injected and when they were implemented.

WoW is an MMORPG, and the Warcraft series are games. There is nothing wrong with the transition because it's still the same medium, just a different genre. As for the Draenei, that retcon or whatever you want to call it is even less of a change in the boundary, because it was introduced after WoW came into play. It's still within the "original boundaries", because the sand box was transferred from WC3/TFT to WoW.

A better example would be the transition from WC2->WC3, and how the orc campaign opened up, and a lot of small details about Thrall and the horde were left out because of the Warcraft Adventures RPG + Novels or whatever. That was stupid, and I for one felt like something was nipping at me when I realized I missed out on something. It's not a BIG deal, I never said it was, but it's still a matter that could have been avoided.

>.> Contradictions aren't a bad thing either when used properly, but I doubt I'll ever see anything as well written and made as ROT.

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Re: Patch 3

Postby RazorclawX » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:20 pm

Xelxiuz wrote:WoW is an MMORPG, and the Warcraft series are games. There is nothing wrong with the transition because it's still the same medium, just a different genre. As for the Draenei, that retcon or whatever you want to call it is even less of a change in the boundary, because it was introduced after WoW came into play. It's still within the "original boundaries", because the sand box was transferred from WC3/TFT to WoW.


You mean how like the Draenei were butt-ugly midgets with a lot of teeth in Warcraft 3 and for all of the pre-Burning Crusade until the space goat paladins came around?

No one really had a problem with Draenei joining the Alliance until they found out about the space goat paladins, which completely contradicted how they were depicted already.
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