Project Retribution

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Re: Project Retribution

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:28 pm

To do this.

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Re: Project Retribution

Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:50 am

Time marches on, and though slow, progress on Retribution continues.

With the Royal family and third-gen UD both considered beta, several beta-level passes have been taken on remastering their effects and filling the holes left behind from their testing.

Image

Whereas the Anahn relied on less than 4 engine effects in Salvation, many ships now have uniquely scaled and configured engines, somewhat suited to their technology level. I placed an emphasis on avoiding clipping as much as possible, so some engines might appear to "float" a bit, simply because I hate the particle plane clipping effect that happens in these ancient engines.

Along with particles, sound effects are also being configured en masse and tested appropriately.

The process of beta testing and beta-related production is expected to last all the way until the end of the project when recordings can begin. The process of polishing and tuning all aspects of the project, and even indeed turning back and revising completed material, is a constant vigilance that must be maintained in order for it to succeed where Salvation failed.

Once I have reached satisfactory levels of completion on the existing races, I'll introduce all of my currently finished Myrookk and Fourth-generation Anahn ships and get these two races into the testable phases. This could happen in a month or less, and will be a major step to getting the sins portion of this project to a reasonable level of completion. Only when all of the races are in beta stages will I consider starting UDK production in full.
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Re: Project Retribution

Postby IskatuMesk » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:36 pm

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Re: Project Retribution

Postby mark_009_vn » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:46 pm

IskatuMesk wrote:http://www.gameproc.com/meskstuff/BlackSun/Hymn.mkv


Hymn... Hymn.... Hymen...


Well... To me the entire trailer/teaser thing really look like a hymen, it's just terrible in so many ways...

It is not because the trailer doesn't work, my analysis of the composition revealed that the ideas and the context is actually pretty strong and well structured, the trailer actually have tremendous potential, but the composition itself was just bad...

The composition was abysmal.


You really did tried a lot of ballsy ideas from what I've seen: silent scenes, recalling parts of the trailers, use of filters and funky effects for a variety of shits... But non of those ideas really come to fruition, which is really sad.


To really understand your mistakes, let us dissect the trailer to pieces first.

The Scenes

Many of the scenes used in the trailers were beautiful, fairly great angles, or at least decent... But too many are just either lack luster or flat out bad. The worse thing is you put too much importance to those bad scenes, which really hurt the overall composition.

For example, the scene of the Bishop floating about in the very beginning is just bad. You are looking at the ship from a very confusing angle, we have no idea what direction the ship is facing, we have no idea what really is the main focus of the scene, we have no real context...

Image

If only you have filmed the ship at a better angle, having in in the middle of the scene... Maybe you would have added a lot more context to the scene and improve it's flow... I have no idea that you still keep scenes like this around... It's bad, fix it.

To be really serious about making Retribution better than Salvation, seek to it that you must vastly improve the quality control because too many poorly made scenes are slipping... They really does kill the quality of the production. Removing the really bad scenes from the trailer even made immediate improvement... Really, sometimes you don't even need those scenes anyways.


The Context

Context is decent, I actually understood most of what you tried to do even though I have little knowledge of TOA lore... I felt the structure is a lot more robust than Salvation... I felt there is more atmosphere, more polish... etc...

But there are still many rooms for improvements. Some of the battle scenes, if mirrored, will more clearly portray the flow of the battle

Image

Image

By mirroring these two scenes, I was able to define the Warlord ships and the Royal family ships are shooting at each other... I generally wanted to keep all scenes with Warlord ships facing the right side while the Royals facing the left side, even though they might be completely unrelated...

As seen by these two scenes.

Image

Image

This might just be a subliminal suggestion... But they go a long way in implying context.

The Composition


First, I would like to say that some of the effects stood out too much, like the posterized filter used in the very first introduction scene.

Effects standing out too much made them look fake, like the white cloud effects used in the section with the lone warlord ship, that effect looks really distracting.

A lot of the scenes have some sort of really awful looking transition, mostly fade transition... Fade transitions are bad, very bad. They really does detracts a lot of professionalism if you use them incorrectly. Fade transitions should only be used sparingly and in special cases, otherwise use fade to black transitions or no transitions at all.

Talking about transitions, you transit to too many scenes at once. Don't just be trigger happy with adding scenes. Some part have you transit constantly scenes after scenes, and it doesn't even match with the music! Why so many scenes? I'm having problems with even keeping up with the details of individual scenes because of this...


The placement of some scenes gave pacing errors, the first view of the space station is a prime example: From a relatively slow scene of the Bishop floating by, you suddenly transit into the sight of the space station, which is a much faster paced scene... This sudden transition broke the sense of slowness set out by the Bishop scene, therefor breaking the immersion right there.

Image

Pacing errors are apparent in this scene.



Should you have used the scene afterwards... Which is a much slower pace look at the space station, the improvement should be great.

Image



Pacing and flow errors are all over the trailer so to speak... The beginning is too fast, too little immersion is built, while the end, which is a high energy action scene, is too slow to release the potential energy set out by the beginning.

This alone reduces the overall impact greatly.


Sound Work

I don't like the Anahn filters used... I know lore wise extreme radiation meant really bad signals from Anahn ships... But the voices really did hurt my ears because the effects was so much of the overkill. Even my mom hates it and not just me. The voice is also kinda loud... Maybe this is because the music is a little quiet at times, a good compression should be in order...



So in the end... To sum up all of the above, I've made my own trailer based on your materials with the assumptions above...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0u4qB7SIJE&feature=youtube

Now I know it is not perfect, I know I'm not a film director or something, and recording the video with Fraps before bring it into WMM has turned it into a pile of shit with terrible FPS, but following my instincts as a viewer, I though this works out far better.
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Re: Project Retribution

Postby IskatuMesk » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:04 am

I don't understand how your composition is supposed to be better nor do I understand any of your criticisms. All you did was change some stuff around and reverse directions here and there seemingly randomly, this doesn't actually instill much of anything in terms of flow. You also confused the champion with a bishop which may be the source of more of your confusion. I don't see how the space station scenes are fast paced given in all of the scenes the objects are entirely immobile, but I'll take your word for it...

I used many transitions intentionally in this video. It is supposed to be difficult to focus on details because this is a series of quick memories and visions without context. I paced the transitions to the voice and not to the music, and I also paced the effects and context to the voice as well. I agree they could have been done better - this was the first time I have experimented with this nature of direction. However, your video totally breaks all of the guiding I had created through the transitions and is just completely without purpose or direction at all. It seems to me you were just quick to point out the inconsistent camera work and didn't actually care about the audio at all the moment you decided to dismiss it.

As far as fade transitions are concerned, Salvation was almost exclusively fade transitions and yet this is the first time anyone has ever mentioned something about it. It was something I was giving thought to last night, really. In the context of this video I think they make sense, but in the full production, it's something I probably want to avoid in combat scenes.

As far as the visual effects are concerned, my abilities are limited. Do not expect after effects level quality out of Vegas. It's just not going to happen. That said, I wanted to set this as a bridge between my last vegas-based effects video and a future After Effects video, to see the differences I myself could make with the newer tools (and not something someone with a decade experience made). You yourself will probably not see such a thing until I make another trailer. I have never used AE before, and I probably won't get the time or opportunity to do much with it for an extremely long time.

The audio quality in your video is completely fucked up. If you're complaining about the audio after having mangled the video I can see why, you totally destroyed it. Your volume is literally over twice as loud as mine and turns much of the voices into a pile of shit. This is painful to me to listen to on half volume. Fix your computer and your issues will largely disappear.

These filters are not my usual fare. I made them in Vegas with very little care for the end result. My audio work is normally done in audition. I actually had a hard time even getting vegas to handle them. I have an alternative method I may try in the next production, but you could be waiting a year or more for anything more serious to be attempted than this experiment.

I was not concerned about quality control in this given I spent about an hour start to finish to record and create the entire thing. I did not treat this with production level quality control. Otherwise the absolutely massive, colossal fuckup I made during the recording wouldn't have slipped past. Funny how you didn't notice it.

Your points are noted, but to me it seems like you decided to take this at face value without actually thinking about this video or what it really meant. It's not a good production in my eyes by any means, but your critique seems nearly nonsensical at points.


/edit

After studying both videos in depth I can say, other than the huge thing I missed when I was recording, the worst part of the video is the transition between the final area that is largely just black in my version. I didn't have any material for that section because I hadn't recorded enough for it. I actually had run out of usable material from my recording session. However, once I realized I had made a colossal blunder in the mod before actually recording, I decided to cut the video's production short and finish it there so I could go back to something more valuable (fixing the problem).

So, I can see how from that perspective the whole thing seems messier because that portion sort of snaps the pacing back and seems more sloppy as a result. I'll keep that in mind for the next trailer, since I'll have UDK footage by then to fill those kinds of gaps.

/edit 2

I am making a short video to convey my ideas with this trailer. I feel I can say it better than I can type it. Maybe you'll understand it a bit better as a result.

/e 3

Said video

www.gameproc.com/meskstuff/BlackSun/ret ... -muxed.mkv
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Re: Project Retribution

Postby mark_009_vn » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:28 pm

Your points are noted, but to me it seems like you decided to take this at face value without actually thinking about this video or what it really meant. It's not a good production in my eyes by any means, but your critique seems nearly nonsensical at points.


Actually I took 5 days just looking at the video over and over again, trying to analyse the context and the composition of the scene to death until I came up with the final conclusion. The video I posted went over 4 iterations to reach this state, most of these iterations are experiments to see whether or not my points are correct...

I'm not here to claim to be better than you at film making (in reality I'm not, I'm terrible when it comes to thing like this :P )... I just felt that as a viewer, my intuitions told me the video seems critically flawed and hardly even reaches Salvation level of quality, so I simply wanted to do my best to analyze that flaw... From your post I think I failed at doing just that...

:(


IskatuMesk wrote:I don't understand how your composition is supposed to be better nor do I understand any of your criticisms. All you did was change some stuff around and reverse directions here and there seemingly randomly, this doesn't actually instill much of anything in terms of flow. You also confused the champion with a bishop which may be the source of more of your confusion.


Well... All I did with the video is cut off many of the scenes, slow down the first part and speed up the second part, and mirror some stuff around... All was done with very clear intentions in mind, If it looked random to you, that means over 5 days of research and thinking just went down the drain. I tried to make sure the changes were as robust and critical as much as possible, enough to hit the viewer at first sight... Reviewing it again for the third time today told me my changes did not went as well as I once though... Oh well...

Also the champion... Yeah... I always though that was the Champion, but I remembered that in Salvation the warlord portion have over a billion Bishops flying around.. So for some reason I dismissed it as the Champion and treated it like a Bishop because I thought it would give more sense to the context...

I don't see how the space station scenes are fast paced given in all of the scenes the objects are entirely immobile, but I'll take your word for it...


I felt the scrolling speed was too fast to really sink down the emotions... For me it really just broke the pacing right off... Don't know about others though...

However, your video totally breaks all of the guiding I had created through the transitions and is just completely without purpose or direction at all. It seems to me you were just quick to point out the inconsistent camera work and didn't actually care about the audio at all the moment you decided to dismiss it.


The audio and the transition... I know what you were trying to do with them, this is why I noted in my first post that your ballsy idea of "recalling parts of the trailers" was great... But when I started trying to edit the video, WMM's dickery and the lack of the source materials meant there is no way I can recreate your "guiding" to my liking in this state... So I just dismiss that idea of recreating the trailer fully and just remove most of the scenes I though was bad...

In general I ran into a whole host of problems and limitations while I made it... The end result would have been so much better if I haven't ran into them in the first place. Syncing audio was the biggest problem, mostly due to WMM's capacity to corrupt my files every time I tried something ballsy... So I just left it as it is...

As far as fade transitions are concerned, Salvation was almost exclusively fade transitions and yet this is the first time anyone has ever mentioned something about it. It was something I was giving thought to last night, really. In the context of this video I think they make sense, but in the full production, it's something I probably want to avoid in combat scenes.


Yeah.. You are a whore when it comes to fade effects, Salvation was hurt badly because of it...

As far as the visual effects are concerned, my abilities are limited. Do not expect after effects level quality out of Vegas. It's just not going to happen. That said, I wanted to set this as a bridge between my last vegas-based effects video and a future After Effects video, to see the differences I myself could make with the newer tools (and not something someone with a decade experience made). You yourself will probably not see such a thing until I make another trailer. I have never used AE before, and I probably won't get the time or opportunity to do much with it for an extremely long time.


Well... I though you used too much effects at times... I just wanted to point that out.

The audio quality in your video is completely fucked up. If you're complaining about the audio after having mangled the video I can see why, you totally destroyed it. Your volume is literally over twice as loud as mine and turns much of the voices into a pile of shit. This is painful to me to listen to on half volume. Fix your computer and your issues will largely disappear.


:P

I just completely dismiss audio and video quality the moment I have to Fraps the video in my laptop to get it to WMM... Due to me not have internet connection this moment (I have to go to a public library for this), there is no way can I even find a MKV converter to convert the trailer to something WMM can read. The volume peaks like crazy, but due to my terrible Chinese speakers I have no choice but to raise the volume up to even hear it... Yep, I'll need to fix my computer alright...

I'm not complaining about audio after mangling it though... I'm complaining about the ORIGINAL audio of the original trailer.

I was not concerned about quality control in this given I spent about an hour start to finish to record and create the entire thing. I did not treat this with production level quality control. Otherwise the absolutely massive, colossal fuckup I made during the recording wouldn't have slipped past. Funny how you didn't notice it.


I noticed it fully, some scenes got some really terrible FPS, two or so of the scene have weird ass camera movement that just broke everything...


/edit 2

I am making a short video to convey my ideas with this trailer. I feel I can say it better than I can type it. Maybe you'll understand it a bit better as a result.



I'll see to it... As long as I can download it first...


EDIT.

Saw it... Now that I understand that you do not really took the production seriously I can agree with you that the trailer was a success. I've mistaken the recordings were production level since haft of them were far, far better than Salvation in terms of camera angles, so I treated that trailer much more stricter than it should...

Concerning the main ideas around the trailer: it's good, it has potential, and I felt it only needs to be more concrete and powerful, but I think when production quality recordings and UDK portions are all ready to be shown they will fill the gap nicely... You should really invest on AE then, because I felt the effects were the weakest link in the trailer, I always like Salvation effects thanks to their simplicity though...

With that in mind... I thought your improved a whole lot more than I expected when I first saw that trailer (lol only 1 hour from start to finish... no wonder it ended up so terrible)... Well, shouldn't have thrown this god damn fuss about how your composition are slipping ever since Salvation.
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Re: Project Retribution

Postby IskatuMesk » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:31 am

Hah. There won't be production level recordings even ATTEMPTED until the END of the project. That means both UDK and sins 100% finished, to be absolutely sure nothing will change.

You're using chinese hardware? I didn't know you had apple products over there.

/edit

I'm going to need a small number of people to help me verify these high level recordings when they come in the future. You better have your internet sorted out in the coming years.
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Re: Project Retribution

Postby mark_009_vn » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:31 pm

IskatuMesk wrote:You're using chinese hardware? I didn't know you had apple products over there.


Well... Vietnam is basically China's long lost slipper anyway... This is why I use a Samsung, asians must use asian things. :P

/edit

I'm going to need a small number of people to help me verify these high level recordings when they come in the future. You better have your internet sorted out in the coming years.


I'm more worried about those character models of yours than anything... Been a little lazy these days but finally I've come to create a GUNDAM 3d model of my own creation... This is actually quite a big breakthrough since even though I have access to many books about the human body and had attempted box moddeling before, I'm totally oblivious about armor or clothing...

Will be showing you when I finish texturing it.
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Re: Project Retribution

Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:46 pm

The character models are the biggest gamble of the entire project. I have no idea how they'll turn out... but the person I vest my hopes in has been a long-time reader of TOA and knows my standards for quality are absolute. Only time will tell.
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Re: Project Retribution

Postby mark_009_vn » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:06 pm

Stg HK?
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Re: Project Retribution

Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:00 pm

Haven't talked to him in years. He became way too much of a bad-ass to have anything to do with talentless retards like me. No, my gamble is way more insane.
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Re: Project Retribution

Postby IskatuMesk » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:24 am

Meh..
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Re: Project Retribution

Postby mark_009_vn » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:16 pm

Meh..

Gonna need more gray. Looks too blue.

Also the lower haft of the station (as seen in tumbl) looks like a mess.
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Re: Project Retribution

Postby IskatuMesk » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:49 pm

It's identical to the top portion and blue is DyiithJhinn color.
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Re: Project Retribution

Postby mark_009_vn » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:03 pm

IskatuMesk wrote:It's identical to the top portion and blue is DyiithJhinn color.


I'm meaning to say that there is not enough gray spots on the model.

Also I don't know why but the low portion from the tumbl picture just looks really flat.
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