Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

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IskatuMesk
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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby IskatuMesk » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:57 am

I have no idea why I got defeated but I suspect it has to do with the MLG rune. I saw the animations, control was taken away, then I got defeated. Either that or it had to do with me trying to spam capture a point.
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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:12 am

Defeat normally occurs when your king/queen (big beastmaster on throne) on your side dies.

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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby Mucky » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:19 am

Mesk was desynced, not defeated. He read my custom disconnect message on vent.

If any of you guys have your replays of that game, I'd like to see them. Bill's especially, but maybe I'll be able to see the integer overflow from Ricky's replay, since it's in the food count.

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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby IskatuMesk » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:20 pm

Ricky_Honejasi wrote:Defeat normally occurs when your king/queen (big beastmaster on throne) on your side dies.

your memory is literally bad
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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby Mucky » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:06 am

IskatuMesk wrote:your memory is literally bad

And so is yours.

Let's talk about your little TGS rant, shall we? I was hoping Ricky would upload the replay before I got into this, but I've been inspired to just say fuck it.

First of all, there is certainly room for improvement, balance-wise. However, balance wasn't the reason we lost. Here are the actual reasons:

1. You were wasting time running around buying items for yourself while our creeps still weren't fully upgraded.
2. Steak spent the whole game facerolling into armies and dying.
3. HKS was asleep.

In the common jurisdictions of competitive gaming, this is what's called "bad teamwork." The three of you were barely productive at all. That game was more like a 4v2 than it was a 4v4.

Second, most of other points stated on Saturday are simply incorrect.

1. No, berserk does not increase the damage you take. I explicity removed this during my rework of the spell. You were simply squishy as fuck.
2. No, CCs were not buffed. They were universally nerfed. What, do you want me to nerf them again so you can use the worst possible strategy when fighting 2v1s, and still win?
3. No, the staves of negation were not the difference between us winning and losing. Go back to the post I wrote in this thread five years ago on why those staves ultimately don't matter (I think this one was HKS, but I'm just throwing it here).

Third, your build was braindead. How to build a herokiller, step one: If you aren't planning on leveling any of the melee-suited spells (war stomp, howl of terror, cleave, vamp aura, etc.), don't pick a melee hero. Pick a ranged hero, level crit + berserk + an arrow orb of your choice. At level 10, cold arrows is 80% slow on movement and attack speed, with 70 bonus damage. One point in wind walk for the invisibility. They level CCs, you level silence, which by the way, would have completely shut Ricky's build down and possibly Rip's as well. If you insist on being a melee herokiller, get war stomp. No exceptions. It stops TPs and channeling ults, it simplifies chasing, and it helps against other DPS builds. I leveled mine to 10 early enough for you to have gotten level 10 yourself. You saw me leveling crit after you, right? You're being lazy and trying to blame the map for it.

Step two: If you're not devoting at least one skill to farming creeps, not only will you not be able to support expensive items on your hero, you're not helping to push any of the lanes. This compounded the problem where I'm running between all three lanes just to keep their army off our barracks.

If I ever return to maintaining this map, I want to make it perfectly clear that I will not be balancing the map based on player complacency. Either grow some balls and change your build, or just keep doing the same thing and losing. It's your call. Just don't cry about it afterwards.

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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:53 am

Dat salt.

Stun isn't buffed? Maybe in the context of versus earlier TGS builds, but it's still far too strong. Coupled with the 1-2 seconds of delay, the very act of trying to engage is an exercise in frustration. You're right, I should probably use ranged for that. Not that it worked out in the past. But at the end of the day, physical hero killers don't work well in TGS, so I would probably do something else entirely. I remember saying I was unsure if berserk increased damage taken. I think Q suggested it did, but I never actually checked, so I just assumed it did. In either case, berserk has been nerfed so hard I doubt it is worth the special slot anyways.

Fire nova dealt with every enemy hero except for bill. Rip had evasion, so he was much more time consuming to kill. Yes, that is a aoe silence. Evidently you weren't listening the numerous times I said this during and after the game and only chose to cherrypick things. So much for team work, huh? Unfortunately its damage is not good for creeps. I had hoped it was.

God orb = squishy as fuck? ok, rework the items, then. 4k for a few stats is kind of dumb anyways. I had magic resist as well. It was usually the minions killing me and not the heroes (with the exception of bill and bash). I was not paying attention to when your war stomp was maxed. By the time you mentioned it the game was already over. If two people are going to get war stomp they need it before your base is already starting to die. Given that some lanes sometimes don't even see opposing players in them in the beginning, and towers are virtually free gold, that snowball can start quickly.

Most of my kill attempts were 1v1. They still didn't work because everyone runs so fast and minions would just wear me down. Vamp would have been nice to have. I probably should have leveled vamp instead of something else and poured money into invuln pots. Crit/cleave/vamp/firenova/something defensive might have been a good combo. I tried to windwalk past gyros and weave through minions to minimize damage but the delay is just way too high for any kind of cute micro. Also, the slight hills killing LoS cost me at least two kills.

I pooled money for a good chunk of the game until most things were capped. At that stage I had to buy items to stay relevant. I had an effective full build by the end of the game and berserk was used to push. I probably could have gotten cleave instead of engineering upgrade, since engineering upgrade doesn't seem to really be that useful. The problem on my part is I had forgotten just how strong armor is in wc3, and how strong inner fire makes that armor. I went into the game expecting to be able to clear the backline on waves with berserk and crit pretty easily. Suffice to say, that didn't work. I don't know if wc3 has armor penetration in it or not (past the orb), but it might be worth adding if the map was ever updating. I will take the blame for that in not having playing this map for so many years.

Steak was feeding intentionally and the spells hks had were also pretty useless. Since no one opted to help or communicate their intentions in 99% of cases, 1v2 was often the situation necessary to ensure survival of production buildings. If we're going to chalk that up to no teamplay, which is a valid point, then there's no point in playing any team maps in this game because no one ever communicates. If that's going to be a consistent issue, and I don't see why it wouldn't be, then I see no point in playing again. We've consistently had more communication in castlefight than we've ever had in TGS. Think about that for a moment.

The problem is that the spells weren't refactored into considering their 10 level upgrade limit. 80% slow? The map is fucked up and everyone knows it. Just like W&M, Map Tong Hop, whatever. No one is ever going to attain perfect balance and no one is ever going to ensure everyone is happy. But what you can do is unit test and take things in moderation. Or you can say fuck it because you know any time invested into it is going to be a waste.

Yes, I played sloppy and I was pissed and tired. But I still think many of the complaints are valid. Teamplay and balance were both an issue. Neither will be fixed.
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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby Mucky » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:52 am

IskatuMesk wrote:Stun isn't buffed? Maybe in the context of versus earlier TGS builds, but it's still far too strong.

Bash is 25% at level 10 and lasts for one second on heroes. Those are literally the same values as Slardar and Faceless Void. Overall, it's actually one of the worst returns for spending your lumber.

I remember saying I was unsure if berserk increased damage taken. I think Q suggested it did, but I never actually checked, so I just assumed it did. In either case, berserk has been nerfed so hard I doubt it is worth the special slot anyways.

The new berserk is 100% attack speed, 25% move speed, and 40 damage. If that's not worth a special slot, I don't know what is.

Fire nova dealt with every enemy hero except for bill. Rip had evasion, so he was much more time consuming to kill. Yes, that is a aoe silence. Evidently you weren't listening the numerous times I said this during and after the game and only chose to cherrypick things. So much for team work, huh? Unfortunately its damage is not good for creeps. I had hoped it was.

I'm aware you had Fire Nova. The silence only lasts for 7 seconds. It's a multi-purpose spell suited for casters with big mana pools, not physical DPS. Silence does one thing and does it well. It fits on any build struggling against casters.

The problem on my part is I had forgotten just how strong armor is in wc3, and how strong inner fire makes that armor. I went into the game expecting to be able to clear the backline on waves with berserk and crit pretty easily. Suffice to say, that didn't work. I don't know if wc3 has armor penetration in it or not (past the orb), but it might be worth adding if the map was ever updating. I will take the blame for that in not having playing this map for so many years.

Plenty of options for armor already exist.

Anything that does spell damage ignores armor.
Cleave ignores armor.
Acid bomb reduces armor by 11 on top of being one of the best DoTs in the game.
Howl of terror reduces armor by 18 on top of reducing creep damage to nearly nothing.

I pooled money for a good chunk of the game until most things were capped. At that stage I had to buy items to stay relevant. I had an effective full build by the end of the game and berserk was used to push. I probably could have gotten cleave instead of engineering upgrade, since engineering upgrade doesn't seem to really be that useful.

You need to buy items to stay relevant? Who is twisting your arm into believing that? I had more creep kills than the three of you combined. I even scored a few hero kills. All I had by the end of the game was a scepter and a pendant of mana. Instead of trying to stack items like this is a dota clone, use that money on extra lumber and mana items.

TGS items will not turn your hero into a DPS carry, nor do I ever intend for them to be that way. I can reduce their price if necessary.

Steak was feeding intentionally and the spells hks had were also pretty useless. Since no one opted to help or communicate their intentions in 99% of cases, 1v2 was often the situation necessary to ensure survival of production buildings. If we're going to chalk that up to no teamplay, which is a valid point, then there's no point in playing any team maps in this game because no one ever communicates. If that's going to be a consistent issue, and I don't see why it wouldn't be, then I see no point in playing again. We've consistently had more communication in castlefight than we've ever had in TGS. Think about that for a moment.

You're the one putting stock into the results of these games, not me. I couldn't care less if we win or lose.

The problem is that the spells weren't refactored into considering their 10 level upgrade limit. 80% slow? The map is fucked up and everyone knows it.

Yes, cold arrows is 80% at level 10. When you're chasing heroes with maxed out chemical rage + scepter + wind walk, that number won't look so big.

The only way for me to objectively judge balance is when teams are equally competent. You aside, there's always at least one person crying about something. If I don't moderate balance requests, it will only make the map worse.

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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:11 pm

Mucky wrote:Bash is 25% at level 10 and lasts for one second on heroes. Those are literally the same values as Slardar and Faceless Void. Overall, it's actually one of the worst returns for spending your lumber.


CC is deceptively strong, even in short numbers, because it is a flat loss of control. At least for me, it results in significant irritation even in short durations because of the extremely high latency (1-2 second delays with just ricky as host alone). As for lumber value, I think that can only really be considered in the terms of the build. Bash would be worthless for any caster or anyone with innately slow attack speed. But I haven't looked at alliance spells in, quite literally, years.

The new berserk is 100% attack speed, 25% move speed, and 40 damage. If that's not worth a special slot, I don't know what is.


I was able to kill a fair number of heroes. However, I wasn't able to push out after killing them. I think exchanging berserk for a utility or aoe spell would be sufficient if you had the means of shutting down someone through damage and fire nova to force them back, and then push. Pushing seems to be the strongest expression of power in this map.

I'm aware you had Fire Nova. The silence only lasts for 7 seconds. It's a multi-purpose spell suited for casters with big mana pools, not physical DPS. Silence does one thing and does it well. It fits on any build struggling against casters.


A 7 second silence is quite strong. The bigger issue is I went for stat items instead of mana regen so I couldn't keep using it in prolonged fights. A sobi mask would have done wonders but I was split between upgrading minions and conserving for either items or structure items.

Plenty of options for armor already exist.

Anything that does spell damage ignores armor.
Cleave ignores armor.
Acid bomb reduces armor by 11 on top of being one of the best DoTs in the game.
Howl of terror reduces armor by 18 on top of reducing creep damage to nearly nothing.


I had no idea cleave ignored armor. I knew spell damage in general does but it's been a long time. I also thought howl of terror only reduces attack damage. I'll have to remember that.

You need to buy items to stay relevant? Who is twisting your arm into believing that? I had more creep kills than the three of you combined. I even scored a few hero kills. All I had by the end of the game was a scepter and a pendant of mana. Instead of trying to stack items like this is a dota clone, use that money on extra lumber and mana items.


There are items with defensive stats, magic resist, and significant damage boosts. Ultimately, I think the function of a physical dps or physical assassin is to eventually fill your inventory with those because they synergize with your build. Even if that isn't the intention, that is indeed the end result (+40 damage or whatever is not insignificant when you consider critical strike). If your goal is to avoid this, you could consider dropping their prices and making them more utility-oriented.

You're the one putting stock into the results of these games, not me. I couldn't care less if we win or lose.


I don't really care if we lose. I get angry sometimes, especially when it's something I am not particularly familiar with and don't get the chance to learn. But I am a designer and at my heart it is always my desire to improve things. I like to avoid frustrations in my play. Some of them can't be avoided (like the latency) but some can be. I know I am probably one of the only people that sees things from a predominately technical perspective, so it often comes down to just bitching.

The only way for me to objectively judge balance is when teams are equally competent. You aside, there's always at least one person crying about something. If I don't moderate balance requests, it will only make the map worse.


As much as this is about me bitching, I'm going to suggest you go by no one's balancing ideas except for your own.
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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:51 pm

In terms of uploading SS replays, I kind of stopped. Instead, I compress and upload the Frapped video on Youtube.

It's still about less than 1 week before I uploaded the videos.

Although I could make an exception this time for the replays. Thus here.

As for the latency delays, I am still very unsure how we can honestly improve that. Wonder if Mucky (or anyone else) as host is overall less worse.
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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby UntamedLoli » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:59 pm

All I was bringing up is that it's kind of stupid that a 110g item that does 300 damage to summoned units with 3 charges exists. I could have a horde of shit in a lane and it's all gone in an instant. It basically makes all the summons useless. Fuck me for actually trying anything different. The 2 seconds delays were also getting ridiculous.
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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:44 pm

Hunter_Killers wrote:All I was bringing up is that it's kind of stupid that a 110g item that does 300 damage to summoned units with 3 charges exists. I could have a horde of shit in a lane and it's all gone in an instant. It basically makes all the summons useless. Fuck me for actually trying anything different. The 2 seconds delays were also getting ridiculous.


Well for 95-99% of the cases, people would forget that such wand would exist. It just happened that I remembered about it out of all people.

Also many summons can easily allow huge pushes and those wands can potentially be the only equalizer to avoid the push + summons to overwhelm your main wave then easily go into your structures.

Finally, I often needed 2 packs of 3 for them to really change anything. I think most high-levels are like 350+ HP and semi-splited. Thus requiring 2 and maybe 3 uses just to kill a small pack.

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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby Xenon » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:49 pm

Just a quick modification to TGS, I added a vote option to allow all abilities for both sides. I also made the neutral abils the same for the factions in general (both life drain and chemical rage allowed by default.)

Could probably use testing.
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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby IskatuMesk » Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:56 pm

Have you ever considered doing something more with the purchasable units? Like, say, being able to morph specific buildings in a lane to spawn units from alternate races? As it is, boats and such seem kind of... useless. Like, more useless than normal.

The logic behind the divisions in LoL was that you could build your lane minions to complement your team build or shore up weaknesses, and to try to counter enemy builds. I feel like something similar, although less ambitious, could be achieved by allowing Alliance to get NE and Horde to get UD units at the cost of others, or allow them to switch back and forth (with their own upgrades ofc). Perhaps this could cost lumber or something.
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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby Mucky » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:12 pm

BIG CHANGE NUTS

CFA:
  • Torrasque's base armor reduced to 3, from 7.
  • Torrasque's Eat Tree has a cooldown of 25 seconds, up from 0.
  • Dwarven Interloper's Neutralize ability has been replaced by a new ability: Scattershot.
  • Dwarven Interloper's Marksmenship Aura ability has been replaced by a new ability: Power Slide.
  • Reworked the Dwarven Interloper's ICE BULLET and Diffusion Wave spells to scale with agility.
  • Added a floating text display for flag capture times. It is color-coded by teams, the same way flags themselves are.
  • Added sound effects for flag assaulting and capturing. After vigorous testing and dickslapping, I have sounds localized to enemy/allied caps.
  • Fixed a bug with Blood Knight's Phalanx destroying bridges.
  • Fixed a bug with flag counts becoming negative. (FUN FACT: The bug Bill reported with the food count getting fucked up is a result of WC3's food count being a 32-bit unsigned integer. Since it can't go into the negative, it instead wraps around to its maximum positive value, which is 4,294,967,295.)
  • Contested flags now correctly ping as white on the minimap.
  • Runes are now more dangerous.
  • MR. BIG now summons recursively.
TGS:
  • Priest's Heal and Inner Fire spells can no longer target Heroes.
  • Reduced base armor on Footmen.
  • Reduced base damage on Knights.
  • Experienced an aneurysm when I realized Flying Machines had FOURTEEN ARMOR. This has been reduced to 8. Also, their type has been changed from Heavy to Light.
  • Spellbreaker's armor type has been changed from Heavy to Medium.
  • Mortar Team's armor type has been changed from Heavy to Unarmored.
  • Removed True Sight from Flying Machines.
  • Removed the Magic Sentry upgrade for towers.
  • Raiders now have 25% cleaving and 2x demolish on buildings. Their base attack speed has also been increased from 1.75 to 1.50.
  • Raider's Ensnare can no longer target ground units. They're fairly consistent about using it on hawkfaggots now.
  • Bloodlust has been reverted to its default values (i.e. it's buffed), but it can no longer target Heroes.
  • Demolisher's armor type has been changed from Heavy to Unarmored.
Test with latest changes + all upgrades researched + all spawns at level 1: Horde won in around 30 minutes.
Test with latest changes + all upgrades researched + all spawns at level 3: Horde won in 12 minutes. Welp.

  • Gave Footmen their armor back.
  • Gave Knights their damage back.
  • Removed cleave from Raiders and bumped their attack speed up to 1.60.
Test with above changes + all upgrades researched + all spawns at level 1: Horde won in 25 minutes.
Test with above changes + all upgrades researched + all spawns at level 3: Horde won in 11 minutes. wtf is happening

  • Undid Bloodlust change (though it still can't target Heroes).
  • Raider attack speed is back at 1.75.
Test with above changes + all upgrades researched + all spawns at level 1: Horde won in 33 minutes.
Test with above changes + all upgrades researched + all spawns at level 3: Horde won in 12 minutes. WELL I GOT A MINUTE BACK

I think I'm going to be at this for a while.

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Re: Satyr Saturday Replays Week 71 and up

Postby IskatuMesk » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:40 am

Flying Machine = Flying Fortress
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