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Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:31 pm
by tipereth
Skeram and Stabstabz should be ready for next week.

Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:53 pm
by Mucky
It's pretty obvious that everyone here has a different concept of balance. Add in to the fact that the only people that play LoL are us - meaning less opinions, and that makes balance virtually impossible to achieve.

When I make a hero, I try to make it somewhat almost useful lategame, when all the creeps have upwards of 700 hp. The problem is, NOTHING scales. There are maybe 5 abilities in the map that I know of that are as good at 40 as they are at 25.

So reduce the level cap. You have 17 levels of absolutely nothing but stats, and to assume having an extra 17 levels of HP and armor is not going to make spells weaker is sheer naivety.

Chaos Warden's ability to stay in a lane forever may not be balanced, but I could never tell you that, because right now:

1) Experience comes too fast which means lane control has little effect on gameplay

2) There is NO penalty to dying except 30 seconds of not gaining experience, and nearly no reward for killing

3) The map isn't complete

Let's look at the Walker as an example. The problem with him was that he could potentially do 3000 AoE damage in a very short period of time. Okay, that's rediculous. Overload was nerfed, and, oh wait! Now the walker is fucking useless. Grats guys.

You nerfed the wrong part of the spell. Even if you lost 200 hp/s, all you had to do was position yourself beforehand (surge helps), press a few hotkeys in quick succession, and there you go, 1.8k aoe damage at the cost of 200 hp lost. You could add a regular release charge to the beginning of the combo for another 1.2k damage, but the extra hotkey click might make it too complex. And don't tell me either of those become weak late game. It doesn't 1-shot heroes anymore (as a matter of fact it never should), but you still clear entire creep waves as easily as early-mid game.

This is what is going to happen. Crush is going to have a THIRTY SECOND COOLDOWN. The stun will be 1/2/3/4. It will now deal a heavy amount of damage (as opposed to like 60 at level 4). Bash will have a 1/1.5/2/2.5 stun. It will still deal a heavy amount of damage.

I disagree with both of those. Crush is an AoE spell that isn't an ultimate, which means it's his staple, especially because it's his only active spell. Even with those numbers, 4 seconds for an AoE stun is as much as Black Hole, ffs. 30 seconds is too long of a cooldown too. I guess a moderate damage buff wouldn't harm.

Bash should NOT scale in stun time. Fuck that with a 20 foot pole. Bash is one of the few abilities that becomes retarded late game because the factor that scales it is attack speed, which improves on every hero. More stun time gives it a much higher threshold to achieve permabash. Attack speed and % chance alone should be enough for plenty of bashes. Anything more than 1.2 stun time is just awful.

And while I'm on stun durations, Eviscerate needs a nerf. I was watching Aiurs play Stabby one game, and he'd just run up and Eviscerate - without hitting them at all - and it stunned them for 5 seconds, more than enough time for a teammate or even himself to completely rape the enemy. It also has a fast cooldown and NO manacost. How the fuck can you possibly think this is ok?

As for singularity, why does it have a DoT that procs on any unit that comes near him? And it's not like it goes away when you get out of range, it KEEPS DAMAGING. I was playing around with Talker in single player, and I kited a creep wave for like 2 seconds with level 2 singularity, and that was enough to take every unit down by at least half. Complete bullshit for a PASSIVE? Yes.

His ultimate is pretty retarded too. When I was playing Slardar and I tried to run from the Talker, he could actually keep up, which means he has 522 ms. All of this culminates into a tank that you can't possibly kill unless the user does something stupid, or the guy playing against him is exceptionally clever. Or both. As for Slardar, 100% movespeed bonus for a passive is kiiiiiind of ridiculous. Not only does it take nowhere near 100% to give someone 522 ms, but the leftover bonus takes effect when a slow is applied and he STILL has 522 ms.

Don't try to tell me I don't understand balance just because I didn't make the map. I know I'm the only one except maybe Arcan that's played DotA at even a remotely competitive level. Most complaints that people at SS make about its balance are non-existant in organized games. I know how its mechanics work, and about 80% of them also apply to LoL and every other AoS. And the fact is, our LoL games are far from organized, and that blurs the concept of balance further, because everything is so much different when people really try to put line-ups together and coordinate spells. So basically my entire post is meaningless.

Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:06 pm
by IskatuMesk
The fish is ridiculous. I'm going to make his sprint a spell, for one, and I've already reduced the damage of his ult by at least half.

I've already been saying we should reduce the walker's damage by no less than half but tip keeps claiming "Oh, he's useless late game!" yet I've been saying the exact same thing that it wipes the entire lane clean of all healers, tankers, and non-level 10 dps the Loladins have. Add an ult on top of that and anything but an epic unit will be dead at virtually no expense to the caster. I'll be reducing the AoE a bit in addition to the new damage calculation it'll have.

You do gain levels too fast. That is a problem that has occured with the new spawn timers.

I intend to make most of the int hero's spells scale with attributes.

I've been doing a lot of stat adjustment. In short...

Str heroes are slower in attack speed like they should be. A lot of them also got a health reduction thanks to these new stats.

I modified crush to a 14s cooldown with some other modifications including boosted damage. As for bash, I'll probably modify it accordingly, along with the other bashes in the game currently (warlord, boatmaster). I also agree eviscerate is too damn strong right now.

I am also implimenting that no passive stun shall exceed 1.2s. I am modifying the talker more heavily.

Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:20 pm
by tipereth
Evis should NOT be stunning for 5 seconds. That is a problem. Walker is being changed as per Mesk's values given in his previous post.

Singularity will have a much lower DoT amount(25% of what it is now) and a longer duration. This seems like it's not helping the problem at all, but the initial damage can only be applied when the buff runs out (every 7 seconds right now) and it will be changed ot like 10 or 15 seconds, with much much lower damage per second. The DoT CANNOT KILL YOU. It is impossible. It's just like poisons, they can bring you to 1hp, but you will not die. His ult should give 15% to move and attack, not 30% to move.  He is also getting a large stat nerf.

Slardar's Sprint will retain the same bonus values, since it would be kind of stupid to be able to immobilize him when he was actively trying not to be immobilized.

Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:23 pm
by IskatuMesk
I already diddled with the ult. I'm also reducing creep levels to the following formula.

Division level 1-4 creeps - level 1.
Division level 5-7 creeps - level 2.
Division level 7-9 creeps - level 3.
Division level 10 creeps - level 10.
Epic units - level 15.

Hero kills will therefore grant more experience than creeps and be the primary source of experience later on.

I would like to have money scaling with levels and a kill leader bounty thingy like in dota but that probably won't happen for a while.


And yes, the disorganized fashion of SS does make it hard to balance and so does people trying to formulate their own little way things should work, which is why I am forcing things to adhere to a sound on-paper system I have constructed for quite some time and work from there. Despite this though I appreciate all of the detailed feedback I get other than someone uttering "nerf nerf nerf!".

As much as I like to think this will one day be decently balanced that will take a great amount of time to achieve.

If all goes well respawn timers should now be level of hero x 1.5. So, a level 42 hero will take quite some time to respawn, and endgame will end faster.


I think I was also able to make a scaling bounty system that gives killed hero level x 5 gold.

edit II:

I tested the creep systems and bounty/respawn scaling with tip, will make some adjustments, then it should work good as gold.

edit III:

Tested the Talker as well and it seems considerably more balanced than it previously was. Moving on to other heroes, now.

edit IIII:

There are now more regions for creeps that should make their attacks a little more consistent and stop the "running back to corners" syndrome. Unfortunately stopping the AI from trying to run back at all will probably prove impossible.

edit IIIII:

With the usual trend of things the Forces of Evil are seeing a slew of new heroes this week. In addition to those Tip is setting up, I am enabling the Emperor of Blood, the Dark Howler, and the Spider Lord. All 3 are agi heroes (The spider is agi/int hybrid) to help balance out the STR-dominated Evil-side army. With Chaosmeld also comes the addition of the Dream Hunter Epic.

The Loladins are not without care, however, for Sir Goat will gain the power to explode with devastating force when poked the wrong way, and the addition of the offensive arcane divisions will surely be a welcome power to the Loladins.

Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:36 pm
by Xenon
Well, I told Tipereth about one cause of the crashes. Ram was working on Nura'Ku Defenders because they're technically not structures, and War3 doesn't like it when you move immovable units with triggers; it crashes when the moved units cast Unholy Regeneration.

Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:40 pm
by tipereth
Problem solved. Also, Skeram is totally and completely done, and is fan-fucking-tastic. Everyone except Mucky will hate him.

Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:32 pm
by IskatuMesk
I was messing with some new particle effects. My first experiments proved quite hilarious.

Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:50 pm
by tipereth
Notes on Skeram: he has a VERY steep learning curve, to the point where first-time Skeram users should not be using Skeram.

Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:12 pm
by IskatuMesk
He isn't so steep a learning curve as he is so random. He won't play the same the next game as he did the first.


Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:09 pm
by tipereth
Might have to scale him down. He's just an evangelist, after all.

Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:01 pm
by IskatuMesk
Xenon has informed me he has already finished the Tyrant's skillset. I tested it myself and I must say you guys are in for one hell of a surprise this SS.

Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:17 pm
by tipereth
Alright, so. Fuck worldedit. Fuck it with a knife. It crashed while saving the Undead Rouge, and I'll be damned if I'm making him AGAIN. He was fucking finished and everything. If someone else wants to try, I'd be happy to help, but I am not remaking all those goddamned dummy spells. I also lost a fair amount of critical Skeram fixes, which just makes this even better.

Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:04 pm
by IskatuMesk
l2save (more often)

btw if you are scrapping stabstabz I highly suggest doing a Loladin hero, either one of Arcan's or one from the first document file that hasn't been added yet. They WILL need it.

Re: Loladins of Legend

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:14 pm
by tipereth
I'll likely be doing two of Rcan's heroes, the priest, and an undecided other. I'll almost certainly forget my statement of hatred and redo the rouge on saturday or something.