Loladins of Legend


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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby tipereth » Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:04 pm

I(or Mesk) will be adding a Skull Probe item, to be used for backdooring.

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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby Mucky » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:03 am

Ok so shizzle fixed since our playtest:

Ultimate Pies is fixed for real this time. Turns out the level 2 and up - ranged bonus was set to False. COCK.

UFC hotkey changed to R. Before, I was highlighted in the tooltip, and the actual hotkey was E.

Grand Cross works now.


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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby tipereth » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:42 am

The mystery of the Oros candygram has been solved.

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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby UntamedLoli » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:10 am

orly
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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby tipereth » Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:03 pm

The failsafe causes the AI to use burrow, in an attempt to regenerate hp. The casting of this spell makes Oros susceptible to the creep wave triggers, so he is ordered to attack the Loladin base. However, I have NO FUCKING IDEA HOW HE FLOATS THROUGH THE TERRAIN. WTF.

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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby IskatuMesk » Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:11 pm

Why does windows try to open jpgs in a fax program?
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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby IskatuMesk » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:38 am

What's coming this SS.

Racial Leaders

Sir Lol and Lord Dread now have a more complete array of spells, compliments of Xenon. No longer is it a simple tank and spank...

Lord Dread and Sir Lol also no longer produce a speed enhancement aura. It is therefore a bit easier to run away from them. Sir Lol also no longer has Smyte due to the power of his new abilities.

Heroes

Although I still need to test if they work in the new Damage Event system, Mucky fiddled with Piercing Spines and Power Strike, so their autocasts function.

Additionally, the old damage display system is finally gone, so no more double text.

No new heroes this week, although Mucky has made X/Y/Z more functional, and Grand Cross has been fixed.

More fixed strings, again due to mucky's creaminess.

bucock

I prettied up the Satanium a bit. Isador's throne is a bit more impressive looking and the entire Evil base is starting to look a bit more evil.

Some more fixes to creeps.  Additionally the 2.0 division ruleset has been forming in my head and I will be making some significant changes to several existing divisions, although it's not likely these will be seen until next week.
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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby Arcan » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:52 pm

Review of Last week:
Dinazen Olkar becomes woefully useless for damage and gives negligible healing for a "High Priest" as the hero claims to be, and I suppose I'll rethink this skill-- it's probably going to lose the damaging portion, but instead be a low-cost insta-cooldown heal or high mana high cooldown high return. I'll think it through.
Fix Grand Cross so it doesn't heal enemies, and add something to make it damage enemies for half the healing per level (level 4 heals for 360 and damages for 180) to make up for the loss of Dinazen Olkar as a damage spell.

also
throwing epic units out of lane aaaa
-275 mana aaaa

I have another problem I might bring up about the map but i'll wait on that for now ok
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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby tipereth » Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:21 am

Unleash Wrath will no longer make you target your own hero to use. Void Walk will get a longer cooldown.

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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:27 pm

I made a few minor fixes but it doesn't look like anything new this week.
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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:07 pm

LoL has reached a point in which I did not foresee. To be honest, when I started this project, I wholly did not expect it to get past the terraining stage. Over time I acquired a large number of minions and followers, a satanic cult so to speak, that flail at random intervals.

Last week there was no changes at all, and hence I did not go to SS since I don't care for dota or whathaveyou. I took a nice break for wc3's extensively boring editor to mess with Dark Crusade AI and work Tipereth.

Now a new week dawns upon me, and I ask myself, "What next?"

The biggest problem LoL now faces is the fact I don't know where to go next. There is a multitude of balance and technical issues to be solved, none of which I can really handle myself. I have a way to streamline the Divisions a bit more, which will surely break the balance twice as much, but it's the only way to fix some problems with late-game situations.

Most of the problems lay in the heroes, though. Not only can I not begin to trigger any of the 30-some heroes I have written out, I can't think of any additional ones. Maybe I will simply post these heroes here for others to comment and modify upon, and then submit them to Xenon and Tip for implimentation.

After introducing the Rust Dragon as a gimmick world encounter there was a surprisingly positive response for neutral boss-type creeps to arrange parties for the purpose of taking down and getting benifets from outside of lane battle. I introduced more boss-types all around the map, each of them with varying power and gold/experience rewards. Right now, though, I can't be assed to trigger the team rewards.

Only two large things remain in my grand scheme that need to be added. The Contribution System, which would reward hero kills with "Contribution" currency that can do things like summon extra epic units, the Avatar of Doom, temporary global buffs, so on. There is also those two control points intended for handling Epic spawns, which seems simple enough, but is just as daunting as the CP system to accomplish.

In short my ideal changes are as follows.

- Epic units are made stronger. Epic units get synergies from non-requirement divisions.
- For most divisions, level 5 is replaced entirely by level 10 units. For Infantry Divison, this means 3 Lolonels and no warriors, no musketeers but bonus archers at level 10.
- When all fortress sectors of an enemy are down, a global upgrade is given to all allied creeps that dramatically jacks up their stats and speeds. This, in addition to Champions and full control of all control points, will end the game in one or two waves.
- There is not much I can do about the "If one fortress falls the game is over" syndrome. I am up to ideas. I am not having building ressurection as that will make games last far too long. I may simply buff interior defenses a bit more, so at least two lanes are required to defeat the General.


That is all I have in mind for creeps. I don't know what to do about heroes.
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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby Mr. » Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:10 am

Doctor Doack wrote:Over time I acquired a large number of minions and followers, a satanic cult so to speak, that flail at random intervals.


*flail*

The biggest problem LoL now faces is the fact I don't know where to go next. There is a multitude of balance and technical issues to be solved, none of which I can really handle myself. I have a way to streamline the Divisions a bit more, which will surely break the balance twice as much, but it's the only way to fix some problems with late-game situations.


Well, the thing about breaking things to fix things, is that if you don't do it early, it's going to be much worse to do after more things get piled on.  You, and everyone who actually contributes to LoL in some way (ie pretty much everyone but me) have made a lot of progress with everything, you've got plenty of heroes who (mostly) work, and aren't too terribly imbalanced right now to the point where they can throw off our test games.  You've got everything set up, layout-wise, all the triggers in place, everything basic is working as it should.  You've got tons and tons of imported graphics, awesome looking units, pretty shooty things, etc.  So I think that now would be a pretty good time to give it the massive poke that will break all of the balance.  Because at this point, making balance modifications shouldn't be that difficult, because all you have to do is change numbers around in your existing framework, and maybe shuffle some things around.

Most of the problems lay in the heroes, though. Not only can I not begin to trigger any of the 30-some heroes I have written out, I can't think of any additional ones. Maybe I will simply post these heroes here for others to comment and modify upon, and then submit them to Xenon and Tip for implimentation.


Actually, at this point, I think that the least of the problems are in the heroes.  As I said earlier, I think you've got enough mostly-working heroes to make the game playable during experimentation.  Also, I agree with what Mucky has said previously, that fixing the existing heroes, and streamlining them should be done before adding tons of new ones. 

After introducing the Rust Dragon as a gimmick world encounter there was a surprisingly positive response for neutral boss-type creeps to arrange parties for the purpose of taking down and getting benifets from outside of lane battle. I introduced more boss-types all around the map, each of them with varying power and gold/experience rewards. Right now, though, I can't be assed to trigger the team rewards.


Awwww... why did I have to not be there when you played two weeks ago :(  I want to fight a Rust Dragon... That sounds awesome, though. 

Only two large things remain in my grand scheme that need to be added. The Contribution System, which would reward hero kills with "Contribution" currency that can do things like summon extra epic units, the Avatar of Doom, temporary global buffs, so on. There is also those two control points intended for handling Epic spawns, which seems simple enough, but is just as daunting as the CP system to accomplish.


Those also sound really awesome, and it seems like they would hugely affect gameplay in a good way, particularly the epic units. 

- There is not much I can do about the "If one fortress falls the game is over" syndrome. I am up to ideas. I am not having building ressurection as that will make games last far too long. I may simply buff interior defenses a bit more, so at least two lanes are required to defeat the General.


This, in my opinion, is the biggest problem balance-wise.  I have a suggestion, and it may be really dumb, but I'm just going to toss it out and see what anyone thinks.

Suggestion #42a:  The Doack Division

Okay, so it's not really about a Doack Division, I just made a hypothetical one to use as in example for something else.

What if there was a structure in both bases, in the center, near the thrones, from which all of the high-level spawns came from?  Here's what I mean by that... currently, there are four divisions, and each one has its own little house in each lane, where every unit spawns.  What if you seperated all of them, so that whatever level you have upgraded your divisions to, the lower level creeps spawn in the lane areas, but whatever the current highest level unit is spawns from the center building for all three lanes?

I really don't know the division builds, so I'll just make up my own.

Okay, so suppose you've got the Doack Division, which spawns as follows:

Level 1:  2 Warriors
Level 2:  2 Warriors, 1 Lolonel
Level 3:  3 Warriors, 2 Lolonels
Level 4:  4 Warriors, 2 Lolonels, 1 Gigapony
Level 5:  4 Warriors, 2 Lolonels, 6 Gigaponies, 9 Doackmasters

You would split up the spawns, so that the highest level units spawn in the new building in the center, while everything below spawns in the lanes as they normally would.  So:

Level 1:
Center Spawn:  2 Warriors
Lane Spawn:  Nothing

Level 2:
Center Spawn:  1 Lolonels
Lane Spawn:  2 Warriors

Level 3:
Center Spawn:  2 Lolonels
Lane Spawn:  3 Warriors

Level 4:
Center Spawn:  1 Gigapony
Lane Spawn:  4 Warriors, 2 Lolonels

Level 5:
Center Spawn:  9 Doackmasters
Lane Spawn:  4 Warriors, 2 Lolonels, 6 Gigaponies

That way, if you upgraded your Doack Division to Level 5, and your bottom lane gets shot, your top and middle lanes still have the full spawns, but on the bottom lane, you only have 9 Doackmasters (As well as the highest level unit from the other divisions).  That way, there's at least some opposition coming from the lane, in the form of a few really fat dudes, but in my experience, really fat dudes by themselves against a full wave will just slow them down a little.  But that way, if the team wanted to try and push back in that lane, they would have some meat, also, if they wanted to push in another lane, they wouldn't have to worry about their entire base getting destroyed instantly from the bottom (Also, as the added benefit of all three sharing the same building, when a gigantic creep wave started ravaging a base, three waves worth of high level units will spawn in the middle).

I was just thinking, that if this were implemented, and I was playing a game, and the enemy team pushed one lane, and destroyed the uber spawn building, then I'd be kinda unhappy.  That could be incorporated as a legitimate tactic.  Or you could also lessen the impact of that by moving the uber spawns back into the lanes if the center building is destroyed.  That way, if one lane is pushed all the way to the middle, and the center building is destroyed, the other two lanes could still get their uber units, but the bottom lane would be empty, and the center of the base would be more vulnerable. 

Alternatively, the center building could be made invulnerable until all three lanes have fallen, that way, there will always be at least something going down all of the lanes, unless all three lanes and the center building have been destroyed.  If all three lanes are gone, then you're pretty much screwed, so having that center building there would just be an annoyance.

An alternative to that, the center building could be invulnerable until two of the other lanes have been destroyed.  That way, you can only push one lane and win if you're really powerful, pushing two lanes and winning would be quite possible, if you could destroy the center building (Which would probably depend on the defending players), and if you've pushed all three lanes, then you pretty much win.  8.

==================================

D.  I'm sure there are many, many things that I've completely neglected to consider in these scenarios, but I'd like to know other people's opinions on something like this, and if people think it's a bad idea, I'd like to hear some other suggestions (not trying to go all two-year old "well let's see YOU do it!"  I just really want to hear some ideas about what to do about the problem, or if it even is a problem).  And by "I'd like to hear it," I mean that it may be useful to Mesk, and the others who are actually working on the map.

Also, there's something else I've thought of:

Suggestion #69b:  Special Beam pew-pew lazor Cannon

Okay, so, aside from the fact that it's pretty much impossible, I'd like to bring up the fact that it's entirely possible for every single unit-spawning structure on the map to be eliminated.  Currently, this isn't remotely a problem, because of the aforementioned "One lane == win" scenario.  But I get the feeling, in trying to fix that, a new problem will arise, in that in some games, multiple lanes will fall on both sides.  So that even if the losing side loses all three lanes, the winning side might just be hanging out not being able to kill the uber-boss.  Of course, just now I remembered the epic-spawn locations, and if a team had one lane left, vs 0 lanes left, then they'd probably be able to take control of the epic spawns, although winning still might take a while, I wouldn't know until actually playing a game that would unfold in that manner.

In any case, I propose a resolution to stalemate problems that may or may not arise in the future:  The Special Beam pew-pew lazor Cannon.  Basically, if both sides are pretty much shot, and not much progress is being made killing the bosses, you could have the Cannon spawn in the middle.  And essentially, what it would do, is zap one of the bosses from across the map.  Which boss is zapped would depend on which team had control.  Controlling it would require keeping at least one hero there, as in, it won't work unless one hero is standing there to operate it.  So the teams could either fight each other for the Cannon, or one team might go for the Cannon, leaving their boss vulnerable for the other team to come in and shoot him. 

Granted, this would just add yet another layer of gameplay, extending the map, but basically, the only reason I thought of it, was in case neither side was winning at all.  Also, that way, the game would actually come down to a battle of Heroes vs. Heroes, as opposed to Heroes and a gigantic wave of dudes vs. Heroes and a really fat boss, which I think would be pretty interesting. 

It's not something that would appear often, in fact, it would appear pretty much never.  And if, in the end, the epic unit spawns alone would be enough to kill a boss, then this wouldn't be necessary at all.  It also might be amusing if, when both bases are completely obliterated, Sir Lol and Lord Dread both charge down a random lane for a fight to the death.

=================================

Suggestion #3000:  Pines

LOLPINES
Paging Dr. @Lavarinth


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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby Arcan » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:24 am

Since we're on the topic, I suppose I should state how I feel about the way the map is going, and where it is. There's so much potential for the map right now; and as I am writing this half-way through what I was trying to write, I realize that I should separate my gripes and desires from what I think should be done. So, we'll start with what I believe should be done.

I believe that LoL should start stop being an incomplete beta that we've been testing for months. A lot of problems attributed to the map are simply, "Well, the map's still in a testing phase, so naturally it won't be balanced." Let's stop making completely new heroes, new divisions, new tangibles - make balancing ones. Did something cool to the Evil side? Do it to the Loladin side, too! Every time we play, I cry when I can't teleport to the Loladin fountain, the defenses are much lower, and the fact that we HAVE to go Tavern/Infantry because that gives us our only Epic Unit, and that's the only way we're going to compete. Reiterating much of what Bill said, let's streamline what we have now, which still involves adding cool stuff- just think about how it balances out. I have a ton of suggestions that I'll talk to you on AIM about or post if you ask me.

Now, for my gripes and dreams:

- There's a lot of time spent auto-attacking creeps in LoL. As it is another AoS map, I will directly compare it: DotA is more so about killing the other team's heroes than it is about wading through an army of creeps with your army of creeps, and especially early game, matching your skill as a player against theirs. As I understand that, similar to TGS, it's a fundamental part of the map (as well as causing problems within the map itself with the whole too-many-unit-movement-triggers thing), because I simply don't find it fun; I can find a random Open RPG and spend 9 years attack-moving at a bunch of creeps and slowly leveling up my character in a boring grind which amounts to no cool ending.

- Seemingly hypocritical, I do love the idea of out-of-lane bosses (similar to what was done with the Rust Dragon). Working together as a team to defeat an otherwise impossible boss is very fun, and using the character that you've spent the duration of the game playing to defeat a challenge is very rewarding. I find it ironic that the leaders of the Loladins and Forces of Evil are nothing like this; they're naturally not meant for a band of heroes to kill (it's the army of creeps' job to do that).

- I suppose the reason I love LoL so much is the fact that I have a say in the matter of how it turns out, compared to other maps, despite my abysmal knowledge of World Editor.  I would love to see a scheduled dueling arena, simple item combinations so people don't have to go searching years to find out how they work, and cool models for all of the heroes, but none of this really matters if the base concept isn't completely fleshed out yet.
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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby tipereth » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:38 am

I'll throw my 2 cents in and say that the isadorian cannon garrisons fucking suck. Seriously, those things are totally unneeded, and they hamper early-game play so much. The great thing about DotA is that you're spending alot of time fighting on open ground. In LoL, you're ALWAYS near a tower.

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Re: Loladins of Legend

Postby Xenon » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:07 pm

For the Loladin divisions, how about some of these units?  ;D


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