Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign


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Re: Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign

Postby Fey » Sun May 22, 2016 11:13 pm

Oh wow! You know, I was planning on doing a playthrough on Youtube of this campaign, lol. I'm gonna comment on your vid!

You're awesome! I'm thrilled that anyone is so interested in my work. Thank you. :)

I can't wait to see you do some of the harder maps, like TM06 or TM09, and the maps I worked the most on, namely TM7 and TM10.

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Re: Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign

Postby noname » Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:55 pm

I`m a multiplayer (1v1 mainly) player myself, but I really enjoy quality campagins, too bad that there aren`t any new campaigns coming out.
I played the original campaign of SC and BW countless times, played the coop mood several times too, and played nearly all campaigns 1-2 times, just anything good to play what I could take my hands on. So I jumped into this, here`s my feedback:

Spoiler: show
1st map:
It`s ok, but instead of devouring ones I`d suggest to put more zerglings with speed and burrow, and more timed attacks.

2nd map:
Pretty good.
Suggestion: Remove the infinite queen spawn, as it doesn`t looks good.

3rd map:
I really like how you made an alternative option, even though it`s way too easy.
You may even consider the alternate option to be the main and only priority, so the player should clear all zerg before time runs out.

4th map:
Seem like no real changes.

5th map:
It looks okay, but it`s too easy.

6th map:
Altough at the Norad II side there was a few hot moments, the gameplay is almost too easy with siege tanks, siege being available, I think it should be removed.

7th map:
Pretty good stuff what you did here with the counters going on. ;) Altough the map itself is again, easy.

8th map:
Wow. Nice that you extracted this stuff. :o Good job, pretty good map, the best so far. I managed to kill all Zerg and win that way, but the zerg throw everything it could, so good job on this one.

9th map:
It really makes sense how you edited this one, as the storytelling implies that Duke has some military force behind him, namely the Alpha Squadron.
There was only one nuke, and the orange didn`t bought battlecruisers, this was easy too.

10th map:
The idea is all right, but I managed to fail both time I tried this (losing all ghosts, losing a hero).


11th map:
Not much changed, easy.

12th map:
Pretty easy, not much to say.


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Re: Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign

Postby Fey » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:22 am

Thank you for playing through my campaign. :) I'll respond to what's under the spoiler:

Spoiler: show
TM01:
The idea of making those tougher zerglings simply have more movement and attack speed is great. I could do something with that, and it would make more sense than hero units.

TM02:
Infinite queen spawn? There's only one queen... isn't there? I don't remember putting in an infinite queen spawn. And, if there is one there, how come it's a bad idea? I mean, I can think of a few reasons, but I wanna hear it from you.

TM03:
My design changes were often about, uhh... linearity. I tried to make the maps less linear and all. So making that the only option isn't really something I would do, but I do agree that the defense strategy is disproportionately difficult to the offense strategy. Any suggestions about improving the latter option?

TM04:
Yep. I was thinking of putting in some aggressive attack triggers, or some more scripted events, though...

TM05:
The AI just doesn't work on this map. It looked great until the AI stopped working, but I haven't been able to get it to work, sadly. If you want to take a look, be my guest. I would love to know what the problem is!

TM06:
The idea behind the decision to put siege tanks into the map comes from the upping of the AI. P4 can be blown through with relative ease, and if you build up quick, you can fortify the position between P5 and Norad II, which would prevent those hot moments. Like, the changes were meant to encourage aggressive gameplay.

I assume you got TM07 and TM08 mixed up... TM08 is the one with the countdown timer and the king of the hill, TM07 is the one with, uhh... all that crazy stuff. I'm gonna respond to them in reverse:

TM07:
Thank you very much! Biting the Bullet is the map I worked the hardest on, and I was very happy with the result, myself. :) Any comments on the protoss' arrival?

TM08:
I figured it made sense to have Norad II being repaired at some point during these missions. The king of the hill part was a concept I was eager to implement on this map, since in the first, you could just, uhh... defensive matrix the SCV and send it to the beacon, and it's GG.

TM09:
Really? You found this map easy? You must be a pretty good player. Personally, I balanced these around my own difficulty level, which is rather average. The things that made this map tricky are their stationary defenses, their tendency to fortify around each-other's bases, and the general openness of your own base and the outpost in the upper left you can get. I would, however, love to know how to edit the AI to not be so... predictable, and so slow. I've looked into a few programs but it all looks too complex to really focus on learning right now. Any suggestions?

TM10:
Really? You failed this map? I find this one of the easiest maps of them all lol. Something ain't right here XD But, uhh, you can complete the map without nukes. Did it in testing.

TM11:
Some more resources were added, the AI was tweaked, and it was split into two factions. Unfortunately, the protoss AI doesn't seem very active, which is, again, something I'd love to fix if I can figure out how to edit Starcraft AI, lol.

TM12:
The AI tends to fortify around the Ion Cannon, but it's the same as any other AI. This is one of my least favorite maps in the whole campaign since, for some reason, it feels like more of a drag than any other mission. You know? Kinda feels like filler. I would love to make it into something special but to be honest, I'm not really sure where to start.


Thank you, again, for playing through my campaign! I would love to hear back from you!

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Re: Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign

Postby noname » Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:01 am

Answers
Spoiler: show
2 When I killed the queen a new one spawned on top of the queens nest, I killed it again, and again.

3 You got right the basic idea, I like it. You could do here some triggered attacks and more zerg buildings for unit production.

7 I forgot to mention I didn`t seen a single protoss unit / building on it.

9 More computer buildings maybe and more attack triggers.


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Re: Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign

Postby Fey » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:04 am

Ah, thank you.
Spoiler: show
TM02:
Oh, gosh, that's odd. I should go and fix that.

TM03:
I think the zerg have enough buildings on the map, but a few more triggered attacks or better AI would be nice.

TM07:
What? That's not possible. The protoss come in after the massive zerg wave does; they're supposed to save your ass. What exactly did you do on this map?

TM09:
I could throw in some defensive response triggers for the battlecruisers in dock... but really I'd prefer to just design a better AI.


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Re: Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign

Postby MattTygore » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:49 am

" so the player should clear all zerg before time runs out."

Eh, we don't really need hard-timer SC2-esque missions in here, those aren't very fun.


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Re: Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign

Postby Revolta » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:22 pm

Pretty much any time-based gimmick is ridiculous and probably shouldn't be in the game, barring a situation where the lore demands it.


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Re: Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign

Postby Fey » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:43 am

Agreed, Matt.

Non-linear gameplay was one of my goals when re-designing some of these maps. Defense for 30 minutes is cool and should be viable, but offense should be an option too, shouldn't it?


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Re: Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign

Postby Fey » Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:54 am

Update going out. Check the OP for more information. Continue reading this post for information on what I could use help testing. If you just want to play, here's the update link:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/bob3a ... terran.zip

Design Philosophy: show
My goal with the original redesigns was to make gameplay more varied by tweaking objectives and AI, map linearity, difficulty, tech trees... etc. The most recent changes to the Terran campaign were implemented with variation in AI in mind, the resultant difficulty changes, and tech tree changes to counterbalance those difficulty modifications.

Due to the amount of missions in the Terran campaign, a whopping twelve (not counting this tutorial) compared to the ten each of the other two races, Zerg and Protoss, there was a need for careful tech placement. I wanted to create a coherent curve of tech, eventually leading up to the biggest and baddest weapons, upgrades, special abilities, etc. So, despite making certain units available early, I limited their tech, and thus the weight of their impact on the missions to some degree. In most cases, it's a simple energy limit restriction, but early on, things like stimpacks and spider mines aren't available while marines and vultures are. This sort of decision was made for early units in order to make engagements a little more simple, and fair with early unit balance.

Thus, I've implemented some trigger-heavy AI enhancements that I hope will spice up maps and offer a challenge, or at least something memorable that the AI did. And, I have looked over tech on every mission and decided that some things should come sooner or later. There are spoilers on their attacks and triggers below, so if you want to see them first, please go check the OP for the update. If you would like to get down to business, check under the other spoilers for the information.

Terran Tutorial: show
The firebats have been removed. You can only train marines, so if you even care about the tutorial, defend your little base with just marines and let me know if it goes over well. Did for me, but, you know, I have to ask.

T1 - Wasteland: show
After you pick up Raynor, the zerg will start to attack the command center you need to rescue. Just a couple of zerglings and a hydralisk, not bad at all to fend off. There are quite a few more red zerglings on this map, only instead of being heroic units, they're like normal zerglings, only with more attack and movement speed. I think it's more balanced that way.

You can't use spider mines on this map anymore, so firebats and better marine organization become a bit more useful, especially with the tougher zerglings and victory requirement upped to twelve marines.

If you're going into this one to test it, please let me know how these waves of zerglings feel. Especially compared to the smaller and weaker waves in the tutorial mission. Feel free to let the zerg run around a little with Black Sheep Wall on, if you'd like; see what they do. They should patrol between the two resource nodes on the map, and if I remember correctly, I programmed the zerg overlords to depart if the drone's killed.

T2 - Backwater Station: show
With spider mines inaccessible, it's no longer possible to hilariously one-shot a clump of hydralisks pouring into your base. Despite this, you do have access to Vultures, allowing you a little bit more unit variety and assault capability. Their availability - through their upgrades, factories, etc. - give you more stuff to spend vespene on. And who likes to pool resources? In addition, they also introduce factories and vehicle combat before level 3, which is important because if you got vultures and goliaths on level 3, it'd be too big of a jump. Anyway! Before, you only had marines and firebats, and if you wanted to take down a Sunken Colony, Raynor would have to tank the thing or you would probably lose a bunch of marines and/or firebats to the sunken colony and whatever zerg reinforcements were nearby. Vultures might only really be offensively effective against zerglings and drones, but they're fast and their health can help a lot on this early map.

...In other words, defense was too easy and offense was too difficult.

While testing, please explore the different avenues to victory you can take on this map. You can go through the zerg base in the southeast, straight up through the middle, or the old way up through the abandoned base. Which would be preferable because goodies. Have a look at the zerglings when they rush you in various places with Black Sheep Wall to see them ahead of time. Let me know what you think.

T3 - Desperate Alliance: show
This map was the one where things got difficult. When I first played Starcraft, I didn't really understand the importance of massing workers, because I was a novice to this sort of RTS at the time. Didn't have many resources, and the amount of zerg that came by the end was a nightmare to deal with. So, keeping in the spirit of my nostalgia... err, past experience with this map, there are some clear-cut and very different approaches to handling this map. The map where things get serious!

The first option, of course, is to defend your base. If you don't trigger offensive counterattacks normally, they'll just send the same forces at you later on anyway, along with mass mutas and stuff like that. Before this update, defense was comparatively difficult to offense, because the AI went nuts with mass production when you left it alone, but kind of just stopped if you picked a fight with them. It was also difficult because they massed their mutas so much, it was impossible to really hold the line when after ten minutes of nothing, they sent literally hundreds at you. The changes to defense are meant to vary endgame attacks and stagger their mutalisk massing a little. It should get the most intense just a couple of minutes before the end.

Offense is the second option. Crush the zerg and break a way through to the dropships. With the changes to offense making it more difficult to keep packs of marines alive, and an overflow of vespene gas, it became evident that I needed to put a new unit into the tech tree on this map. Vultures were introduced one level ago, so here's another vehicle: The goliath! The mechanical marine. Its presence put an emphasis on vespene gas usage that just wasn't there before. Although it's a great unit on this map, marines are still essential due to how cheap, yet effective they are, so goliaths were a perfect tanky substitute that enabled the destruction of the zerg base to be really plausible. A pursuit on par with defense in terms of balanced difficulty, as far as I've seen so far.

Every terran unit in the tree on this map has a place in it, and I'm personally very happy with the decision to add the goliath, as well as to remove spider mines and ion thrusters from being a default thing at the very start. It feels like the player has a lot of options about how best to approach their offense or their defense. It's also worth noting that the more pressure you put on the zerg bases, the less they'll send at you later, and the less units they'll even send out of their base. So, attacking a couple of structures just for the sake of harassing them is also viable.

If you are testing this map, please don't hesitate to try some different strategies! I want to know what you think about the balance between offense and defense on this map. Is one strategy noticeably harder than the other? Is there something I could add or remove from this map to improve gameplay in some way? Please comment on this thread after you get an idea!

Edit: Tested again last night, offense way harder than I remember. That or me being really really tired made me fail to play properly, but I'm not really sure. While testing, please play aggressively. Need confirmation that killing the zerg still reasonably difficult, especially compared to defense - the two strategies should be about the same in terms of difficulty. If you find one or the other is much harder, please let me know!

T4 - The Jacobs Installation: show
One of the great things about installation maps for game design is that when you have a limited tech tree, but a lot of missions, this sort of map stalls the tech tree. No new units need to be added, or if a new unit is added, they can be built in the next map, and then the curve is maintained.

Enough of that, though. The only thing different about this map is that there are a couple more enemies, and enemies will come at you, rather than waiting for you to come to them. Please let me know if the enemy units derp out in one place or another so I can tweak their pathing somehow.

T5 - The Antigan Revolt: show
If anything needs testing on this map, it's the stupid AI that refuses to cooperate. If any of y'all can figure out a way to make the AI do something other than sit around and drool on this map, I would love you. I would like to add some scripted attacks, but it'll still feel empty without the AI doing its own thing too.

Wraiths can be built, and can cloak, but cannot get Apollo Reactors on this mission. Not only does it cap the amount of energy they have, but it reduces the amount of energy they start with when released from the starport. A minor nerf, but still something. Something that won't matter until the AI actually works...

T6 - New Years Day: show
I tweaked the purple AI a while ago to be pretty weak compared to the orange AI, which masses stuff like one might expect. The reason for purple being so weak was because orange could attack Norad II behind the purple base with impunity, making it really difficult - in a bad sort of way - to try and defend Norad II with what you had. I wanted to encourage an aggressive sort of playstyle by leaving orange the way it was, and allowing the player to siege through the purple base with relative ease.

Unfortunately, that made it too easy. Siege tanks are still available, but now you cannot siege them up. They're just tanks for this mission.

I would like to add some trigger-based AI attacks to this map, but in the meantime, this is the change I've made. Lemme know if you think it helps.

T7 - Biting the Bullet: show
Much like the Wraith nerf on TM05, Science Vessels may no longer have Titan Reactors on this map. Other than that, I would like to figure out why the hell the protoss ally isn't attacking the zerg. And, I would love to make the latter half of this map less stagnant. After that huge zerg wave, there's very little in comparison the zerg will send at you.

Still, the first half of this map - and how choices made then affect the latter half of the map - needs testing. If you decide to test this map, please employ some different strategies; rescue every Terran base before considering building stuff for yourself. Or, go straight south and make the first thing you claim that mineral field. Whatever you can think of. If you have any ideas about what could help the latter half of this map, or if you simply feel it's fine already, please leave a comment!

T8 - The Trump Card: show
This map wasn't really one of my favorites at first. You could just defensive matrix the SCV and then it was GG. My initial change to the endgame, making it into a king-of-the-hill sort of portion, helped, but there was still more to be done.

There are a few scripted attacks on this map, and the AI has been upped from 'difficult' to 'insane.' The first attack is likely to be a squad of marines and a single ghost wandering down from the north when you pull back your structures. Expanding to one of the expansions outside your base will prompt the enemy to send units to attack that location. Bringing an SCV to the beacon, and keeping a psi emitter there, will cause enemies to flock to that location to try and beat up your SCV. The most fun attack, though, I think, is the one with the wraith squad...

Triggered by a number of things - such as building another barracks, factory, starport, command center, many SCVs, getting Norad II... etc - the attack comes in two parts. First, eight cloaked wraiths spawn in the upper right and head to the lower right. When they get there, a battle cruiser and two uncloaked wraiths head for the right side of your base as an attempted distraction. At about the same time as they attack, the squad of eight cloaked wraiths sneaks up around your southwest side, then gets right inside your mineral line. How long they stay depends on how many SCVs you have. If you have like six or less, four will be good enough. If you have fourteen SCVs, they'll try to snipe eight before fleeing. Sneaky, eh? If any of them survive the trip back, they start a simple patrol path around the beacon.

Now, I'm not really a huge fan of starting someone out with a massive base... a base is something you build, and when you do that, you're familiar with it. So if there are a lot of buildings in a base, I try to reduce how varied they are. For this mission, I removed the factory that you start with and replaced it with an engineering bay, allowing the construction of turrets right away and allowing for infantry upgrades at the beginning. This is better, I think, because of the new AI attack triggers, as well as the fact that you begin with two barracks. The limitation to infantry units also encourages a more defensive playstyle at the beginning, which is great because the enemy is aggressive at first. So, with two barracks, an academy, and an engineering bay, your starting base is a little less confusing.

Ghosts and nukes are also a thing on this map and onwards.

I did a bit of funny trigger work on this map, so if you're testing this map, please watch for a few things: See how the AI interacts with your decisions. Experiment with the king-of-the-hill section at the end, for example by taking your SCV on and off the beacon to see if anything breaks. Bear in mind that as soon as the brown dropships show up, it will take a moment for the countdown timer to deactivate because they need to drop off their cargo first. After they do, and once they start to leave, it should say the psi emitter was moved. If you see any wraiths or battlecruisers making sudden forks off in random directions, they might be stuck on a scripted patrol path, which would be worth reporting. And, see how the difficulty is...

Thanks.

T9 - The Big Push: show
There are a couple of little AI quirks I added on this map. Science vessels will drop by if you walk on the enemies' perimeters with a ghost, and they'll send a battlecruiser or two if you overstep your boundaries. Bring a ghost with you on attacks if you plan on testing this map, and see if you can think of anything else that the AI could really use.

T10 - Operation Silent Scream: show
Nothing much changed about this map. If you're hoping to test, see if you can get some of the decorative civilians - the ones that don't scream for help when you approach, but run away anyway - to trigger enemy reinforcement spawns - marked by ruins terrain. Remember, it won't spawn the units unless the structures nearby are still standing!

Reinforcements are randomized on this map, so it might be worth it to save before getting a beacon in case you get different things if you reload, and aside from civilian chases, there are also enemy ambushes, and the white terran ally is known to break here or there. If you come across any of these events, please observe and see if you can find anything I'd be able to fix. And, regarding the main objective, see if there's any way to sneak Kerrigan in someplace - there should be detectors next to every beacon, minus the brown starport. Check if their blast radius works properly; exploding structures from Kerrigan's bombs should kill anything nearby. You can also test by blowing up the structures normally, instead of using Kerrigan. The beacon should disappear, and the option to use Kerrigan to trigger that beacon should also be disabled once the buildings are already down.

T11 - New Gettysburg: show
No changes from previous entry. Need suggestions! :)

T12 - The Hammer Falls: show
No changes from previous entry. Need suggestions! :)


Thanks for reading. If you're testing, good luck! If you're not... well. Good luck anyway! :) I look forward to more feedback. Y'all have been really helpful in balancing stuff out and I hope to hear more so I can continue to fix more.

By the way, I'm also in the process of polishing up the zerg missions. I hope to make them just as entertaining and fun as the Terran missions.


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Re: Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign

Postby Fey » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:21 pm

Apologies for the triple post. I figure that letting y'all in on an update warrants some more chatter. If I am mistaken, please let me know.

...I'm not talking about another update for the Terran campaign, I'd edit the previous post for that. I mean an update on what's happening with the Zerg campaign!

Skytech RTS, or MattTygore on CC, gave the Terran campaign a playthrough on his channel. Since witnessing another player's strategies and whatnot helped me make changes to the Terran campaign, I let him have early access to the zerg campaign. The first mission is already up here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcnKRwyWEU8

For the first time, I made a reply video. The purpose of the reply was to communicate the changes I made based on my observations of his own gameplay to Skytech. It's unlisted, but y'all may have a link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ7HP6SwLxk

Please note that due to recent YouTube trouble, I had to scrunch my own video into under 15 minutes. I cut certain parts out, such as menu time or periods of black screen, and I sped up the gameplay whenever my units weren't in combat. Please refer to the description for more information, though it's mostly just a verbal communication to Skytech and comments on the playthrough, occasionally pertaining to enemy AI changes or my own strategies.

Anyway, with that said, there are two things I wanted to get across. The first was that progress is currently being made on fine-tuning the Zerg campaign, and the second thing was that if anyone else wanted to test it out, I just need you to remember to send me details on every map - and I mean in detail - after you give 'em a try. You can post 'em on this thread, preferably under spoiler tags, if you'd like. It might also be prudent to take video since I can see exactly what you're doing and apply those observations to my map design, but if you cannot, specific and carefully considered suggestions posted here or in PM would be a-okay. If you would like to do this, just send me a PM and I'll reply with a link. :)

For reference, I need to know stuff like if there are any glitches in triggers that occur sometimes and not at other times, anything overtuned about the map, or undertuned, anything particularly out of place, such as units or upgrades available or triggers of some sort that cause something weird to happen, or if there are any parts of the map that move too quickly or too slowly.

Thank you! I hope to hear back from y'all.

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Re: Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign

Postby Connor56203 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:32 am

sup everyone

cant wait too start playing this hopefully its really hard!! i need a good challenge to push my skills to the max (sorry if it sounds really cocky)
ive played that "INSANE" campaign but its complete BS some of the missions are complete able but some/most are really stupid

is terran the only campaign that you guys have completed? or need a beta tester please tell me i will not hold back on the feedback! -
to make it the absolute awesomeness/best it can be! :) (msg me on skype? connor7-11)
Thanks!
EDIT 1: [Link to my playlist > http://bit.ly/2abkUeo]
EDIT 2: mission 4 Jacobs installation what did you change in this mission or did i just suck during this mission?


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Re: Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign

Postby MattTygore » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:46 am

DELETED
Last edited by MattTygore on Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Polishing up / redesigning the original Starcraft campaign

Postby MattTygore » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:01 am

UPDATE.

Hey admins, Fey (the crreator of these maps) has informed me that he's still working on the campaign, he just can't log in to his account because he forgot his password.

Here's the conversation we had on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wg_F9Q ... nhbnyctwv0


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