BW Missions

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BW Missions

Postby omega20 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:34 pm

I've been working on modifying some of the Vanilla/BW missions for some time. My idea was to allow the player to play at the other side of the battles in order for him/her to have a different view of the conflict while playing the 'same' old maps (actually the only similarity is the terrain used).

Now, I think I've succeeded. As for now, only two maps have been 'converted' for this purpose. These are:

XTerran05: Emperor's Fall - Download Link -> http://www.sendspace.com/file/e4pl89
XZerg10: Omega - Download Link -> http://www.sendspace.com/file/un8vz1

The include new music, so it's adviseable for you to press Ctrl + M when opening SC. That's all; enjoy! :)

On a side note, if you want any of the original Vanilla/BW maps in particular to be modified this way, just tell me. I will without no doubt check it out and do my best to do it. ;)

Cheers!

~omega20

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Re: BW Missions

Postby Lavarinth » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:40 pm

So, does the player lose? ;)
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Re: BW Missions

Postby omega20 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:58 pm

Lavarinth wrote:So, does the player lose? ;)


Practically, no. The mission will end in victory for the player (Defeat is only triggered whenever the hero(es) are killed). Theoretically... yes, the player does lose. :P But at the advent that those are not just B&D missions. Instead, they're mostly focused in defense and minor raiding, specially "Omega", in where you must destroy the outlying zerg hive clusters while at the same time defending your position from an insane zerg AI (whose base is entirely invincible, including drones). I think they will add some fun and diversity to SCI gameplay (which, unfortunately, seems to focused on B&D like missions). Moreover, they're still subject to future improvements. ;)

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Re: BW Missions

Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:53 pm

Wow, hold on. How did I miss this?

omega20 wrote:(which, unfortunately, seems to focused on B&D like missions)


I'm sorry, what? Did you just diss B&D bro? I sure hope you didn't just diss B&D. I ain't gonna stand for that man. This kind of a mindset is what drives me away from user-made campaigns. Starcraft is an RTS, and RTS is B&D. Get over it. I personally won't play anything dependent on minigames or brainless a-move "installation" missions.

If you made some nice B&D missions and boasted about the prospect I might have considered trying them if Brood War wasn't unstable for me. But because you said this I won't even consider it anyway, because I know that the level design will be very poor if your mindset tells you that B&d always automatically equates to bad. Anything non-B&D is exponentially more difficult to design properly and in a fashion that properly contributes to the story, much less is fun to play. If Blizzard can make a campaign based on B&D that can hold my attention why can't you do better? Their mappers are bottom of the barrel.

It's why I liked Mekani. It wasn't sophisticated, it wasn't some kind of triggering revolution. It was B&D, and it was true to the gods-damned genre. Learn from that example,find a new game to make content for, or start investing into major modding to reach a better solution. But don't you dare hate on B&D.

That goes to everyone. I'm just tired of this mindset that you've somehow worked yourselves into. It's incorrect and it only hurts your design in a way that is completely avoidable.

(Yes I know that's a bot post but that's a rant I've been meaning to vent for a long time.)
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Re: BW Missions

Postby Xenon » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:02 pm

Huh? Were the Mekani in a campaign? There's a total conversion but I'm not aware of campaign levels for it.

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Re: BW Missions

Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:26 pm

Yeah... RCX had a campaign for it. iirc it replaced the main campaign.
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Re: BW Missions

Postby omega20 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:13 am

IskatuMesk wrote:Wow, hold on. How did I miss this?

omega20 wrote:(which, unfortunately, seems to focused on B&D like missions)


I'm sorry, what? Did you just diss B&D bro? I sure hope you didn't just diss B&D. I ain't gonna stand for that man. This kind of a mindset is what drives me away from user-made campaigns. Starcraft is an RTS, and RTS is B&D. Get over it. I personally won't play anything dependent on minigames or brainless a-move "installation" missions.


Oh, you just didn't understand my point. I wasn't saying that B&D missions are bad. I actually love them. It's just the way Blizzard presented them in SC and BW. There were just too many basic B&D. That will be, build and destroy the enemy's base. I've made many tries of B&D campaigns, and after some time I had to quit playing because it was just too repetitive to have to build and kill the enemy mission after mission. I'm not saying I like installation missions neither. I dislike those even more. I usually prefer something that is new. Maybe a mix between installation maps and B&D, or just an improvement on the B&D idea to keep it interesting all the time.

IskatuMesk wrote:If you made some nice B&D missions and boasted about the prospect I might have considered trying them if Brood War wasn't unstable for me. But because you said this I won't even consider it anyway, because I know that the level design will be very poor if your mindset tells you that B&d always automatically equates to bad. Anything non-B&D is exponentially more difficult to design properly and in a fashion that properly contributes to the story, much less is fun to play. If Blizzard can make a campaign based on B&D that can hold my attention why can't you do better? Their mappers are bottom of the barrel.


I know it takes a good deal of time and skill to do a pretty good B&D mission. I'm not complaining about the mechanics of B&D, but, again, about repetition. Having 90% of a 30-level campaign missions as B&D may get boring if you are skilled and if they are all just the same one after other. All I was saying is that, while I "like" the design of SC and BW B&D maps, I think they can be greatly improved. I was just testing a way to do it.

IskatuMesk wrote:It's why I liked Mekani. It wasn't sophisticated, it wasn't some kind of triggering revolution. It was B&D, and it was true to the gods-damned genre. Learn from that example,find a new game to make content for, or start investing into major modding to reach a better solution. But don't you dare hate on B&D.


I liked it too. That's because I didn't get bored with it. It's a shorter compaign in comparison with SC and BW, and it improves upon the original campaigns both in triggers and in overall campaign design. It contains some very simple B&D maps too. Just not that many as in comparison to SC1.

IskatuMesk wrote:(Yes I know that's a bot post but that's a rant I've been meaning to vent for a long time.)


Who said I was a bot, bro?

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Re: BW Missions

Postby IskatuMesk » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:51 am

Fliptop is the bot who bumped the thread.

I wasn't saying that B&D missions are bad. I actually love them. It's just the way Blizzard presented them in SC and BW.


Well, yeah. The thing about Blizzard's B&D is they are very watered down. Looking at SC2, only in 2-3 missions are you able to expand more than once and usually you only have one base up at a time. One-base play is typically very boring, and is why the multiplayer aspect is quickly becoming very stale.

Another thing I liked about Mekani, specifically the last mission and explored by extremely few mappers, is allied/FFA missions. I see so few games where you have allies, much less allies that aren't intentionally retarded, that it's terrible. Much of the game's scale is getting missed out on by restricting the player to one-base play on small maps with nothing else going on.

Having 90% of a 30-level campaign missions as B&D may get boring if you are skilled and if they are all just the same one after other.


This is where modding and stuff like cloning AI comes in handy, or just making custom scripts altogether. I don't care if you're Bisu, throwing ZAPOC into a campaign map is going to bend you in all sorts of directions before the final and penultimate penetration. Modding allows you to explore options unavailable to mappers in tradition sense, including dramatically raising the difficulty.

Food for thought I suppose.

A very long time ago I made a mission that was the reverse final toss mission of SC1. As in, you were the Zerg defending the Overmind from Terran/Protoss. You had two allies and there was at least 4 enemies. Now back then the AI was pretty basic but it was still entertaining.
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Re: BW Missions

Postby Rocco » Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:46 pm

Lav, add a "like" button solely for Mesk's first post.

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Re: BW Missions

Postby Lavarinth » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:37 pm

If you only knew the things I'm working on...
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Re: BW Missions

Postby IskatuMesk » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:48 pm

You mean that gigantic lawn chair? Don't think you can hide from me your secrets!
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Re: BW Missions

Postby noname » Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:07 pm

It took me quite awhile to figure out wtf is that b&d stuff that you guys were talking about. :D
Does the Emperor`s Fall has an ending? :D Just because I got bored after 10-15 minutes of play. :) The other one looks more interesting, I`ve got killed by a lots of air stuff, so I`ll finish it later. :)
On a side note, if you want any of the original Vanilla/BW maps in particular to be modified this way, just tell me. I will without no doubt check it out and do my best to do it.

Altough I do not know what is a Vanilla campaign, I want to play them all (the original ones too, if you would be so kind to provide a link :) ) !
A very long time ago I made a mission that was the reverse final toss mission of SC1. As in, you were the Zerg defending the Overmind from Terran/Protoss. You had two allies and there was at least 4 enemies. Now back then the AI was pretty basic but it was still entertaining.

Again, please share this map, if you still have it (or someone has it) :)
I know it takes a good deal of time and skill to do a pretty good B&D mission. I'm not complaining about the mechanics of B&D, but, again, about repetition. Having 90% of a 30-level campaign missions as B&D may get boring if you are skilled and if they are all just the same one after other.

I played so many great campaigns, and so many not-so-great campaigns, my oppinion is that simple logic is key. Building up your map from a basic idea, and improving it with going into detail and depth. Figuring out how to harden the campaign is what needs basic and simple logic and thinking, thinking about situations what may and might happen ingame. For an example, your player is Terran, and your Terran player wants another expansion, but it`s in the zerg`s hand. You want to the battle for the exp. be hard. What is needed, to guarantee that? A very tiny choke with lurkers and swarm for example.
Playing your cards out properly is the way to make a very good and entertaing B&D campaign map.

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Re: BW Missions

Postby IskatuMesk » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:28 pm

To expand on the example of the expansion, you could also have lurkers on ledges around the base that require a bit of extra work to get rid of. Proper use of elevation is key in B&D.
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Re: BW Missions

Postby Xenon » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:17 pm

By any chance do you know what version of Starcraft the Mekani Memgraft patch is for?

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Re: BW Missions

Postby Ricky_Honejasi » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:33 pm

Xenon wrote:By any chance do you know what version of Starcraft the Mekani Memgraft patch is for?


From my side, I think I did play it on v1.07 or so way back then. I believe it was made when v1.07 was pretty much the "final" version that Blizzard didn't update to v1.08+ for a really long time. Also the time where many CC BW campaigns (some including with Memgraft modding) were made.


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