Page 1 of 7

Hots taem

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:31 pm
by SteakofStake
h ey lets make a team in a hots but no french allowed they cant wake themselves with dick slapping so they are too weak to join this team, brothers

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:56 pm
by IskatuMesk
Well if we have a topic here I may as well share some of my thoughts so far like I did for the league team.

I do tend to do some analysis in my replays but sometimes putting stuff into text can help.

Most people are probably not too serious about improving that much or really putting time into a lot things, but at the very least HKS offhandedly asked "well why were we losing?" when I mentioned I was casting a replay we were getting destroyed in.

If I think specifically to that one game vs a bunch of rank 5-1's where we were destroying them hard down to their core and then threw, there's two major things I can immediately recall off of the top of my head.

1 - people playing as tanks roaming alone and getting thirsty.

Maybe the #1 thing I noticeably see in both playing and watching is tanks that start chasing out of fights and leaving their carries to fend for themselves. This is a paramount problem in league that easily decides games and it may seem less an issue in heroes since death seems to be less an issue early on, but make no mistake this is a leading cause why we throw games. In the aforementioned game specifically, I made note Illidan would dive me every chance he get. Sure, he was doing dumb shit like hunting Johanna and iirc he died the most on their team, but then he picked up magic shield and zoned me from every end fight if not outright killing me. You know who isn't going to kill a team supported by Tassadar? Everyone else.

The bigger issue than this was of course half of our team sticking out on top lane across the map from the rest of us, getting caught out, dying, and thus handing them the boss that allowed them to freely dive our core. Until then we were dictating every fight by their thirst until some of us got too thirsty and paid the iron price at a time where respawn timers actually began to matter.

If you are having a poor time being effective as someone like Leoric or Stitches probably the most important thing you can do is single out whoever is going for your carries or supports and try to bodyblock and zone the fuck out of them. This is not always possible because if you have only one or two CC abilities and they are constantly on cooldown you just can't do anything. But I commonly got chased down in many, many games by people who really had no right having sole access to me (sonya, zeratul...) for as long as they did. Tunnel vision is a problem we all have (I died like 4-5 times in the first ranked 5's because I simply wasn't watching the minimap and did REALLY dumb shit) and a problem consistent with the league games as well.

Ultimately, this is what gives people those high ranks. There was a stark difference in mechanics between the rank 1's (terrible) to the rank 5's with Kaelthas (probably best I've seen so far, ergo, a challenge for me when I am playing well). But resulted in our losses for reasons other than mechanics - playing the map and outpositioning us.

2 - Positioning

There seems to be two major constants that I notice that may be best shown by the weed map.

The first is, we always seem to lose someone to an all-in mid gank. I guess this is some meta shit. Problem is people keep falling for it even though we expect it. There's actually literally no reason to even attack the minion wave until you see who your opponents are. Nor is there a reason to expose yourself to them until you see the rest of their lanes on the map. The early death is not really a big deal in itself but it can snowball to a roaming gank that, even if it doesn't land more kills, tends to net big pushing and exp benefits. I think the reason people do this is primary for globe farming. Remember when that pubby we picked up for a while mentioned a Jaina Azmo combo before we went to sleep? The idea is Jaina sets him up for a Q farm by lowering minion waves for his Q. We were with a pubby duo consisting of Johanna and Azmo and wondered why they kept just going from lane to lane. Like I said then, he's stacking his Q. It makes perfect sense for a setup to work like this, like it makes sense for a gank squad to roam to orbs and just pick up kills along the way.

I've done this solo in some of our games, primarily as Jaina, but it's really hard because most people kill the caster minion before I'm able to get to it and the orb is either picked up or just despawns. This isn't actually a very high level "tactic" by any means, it's just something we never traditionally try to communicate.

We have pretty good communication and I've done what I can to do some shotcalling despite my general lack of awareness and multitasking ability, and I think that works well enough for the moment. But there's some basic positioning things I think everyone should know about.

A lot of teams we repeatedly have trouble with are dive teams. Thrall, Zeratul, Tracer, Sonya, these all bring shivers down my secondary rudder. That's because I typically play assassins as it's the only thing I'm really good with, and I know it's usually me fending for myself when I get jumped. I try to stay behind our tank line, but they'll almost always dive the tank line. I've seen emus get plucked feather by feather while everyone else kind of does their own thing. This plays into the first point, but it's a very positioning oriented subject as well.

Of course, team comps vary. Half the time we never have tanks. But anyone with CC should be aware of who their opponents are and who they'll go after. What is our comp? Lunara, Johanna, Milf, Xul, etc... who are they going to dive first? Either milf or lunara. Xul has a shield and any good opponent will do everything they can do ignore tanks.

The most major thing I am not 100% sure how to deal with yet is duo support comps featuring Tassadar. The shields seemed so ridiculous that as li-ming I just couldn't punch through them. I need to look at those games yet, but I watched the first game, with my awful Lunara early, and how we just ended up destroying them after we hit a certain point. Why? I think it's because we had an Emu raynor. Subsequently, this is why we lost the Sun Temple map with Lunara/Zeratul.

Ultimately, Lunara is not very good against dual support teams or half the supports in general. Yes, you burn healer mana, but not before they burn down your team. I just shouldn't pick lunara unless we have at LEAST another high sustained DPS (raynor with giant killer, seasoned marksman in the aforementioned case worked well). I normally avoid picking jaina because I often find myself forced to duel other assassins, and with li-ming, kaelthas, illidan, zeratul etc always on my nuts, I tend to rack in way more deaths than normal. But I think in this situation I should play her instead of Lunara.

Also, a third point and mostly for myself, I wasn't really thinking about the maps ahead of time. Lunara is best in a map associated with individual picks and duels. She basically hard counters li-ming, kaelthas, jaina, and others in solo fights once you get the shield, which is why I play her. But the only maps you can really get those kinds of fights on are maps like towers of doom with lots of individual roaming. Also, most QM 5mans we run into are fucking horrible teams that don't play well together (like us!) so picks are easy. I got no picks in any of those ranked 5's besides when they really wanted to throw. So, when it came to the sun temple map and the spider map, in retrospect, I picked a hero that was suboptimal for the kind of team fighting I was looking at. It worked out in the spider map because they were melee heavy and we had a second, high sustained dps I could feed off of, and it worked extremely well when I flanked the team fight and worked into it rather than when I was a part of the initiation. In the sun temple game our only other damage was Zeratul and he would melt if he tried to do sustained anything. Also, lili counters us both at once. Great. If I was better with Chromie I would have played her for that game, but she won't work on most maps because, quite honestly, she is losing me games from having literally no siege damage. We lost a game on immortals vs dual support because... yup, couldn't out damage their immortal OR kill them after 20. I would survive fights and do all kinds of cheeky shit, landing a triple with one w... and then fail to even scratch the immortal. So, I think I might be able to pick her for specific maps.

I want to pick up Leoric because he seems to be the only tank I am good with so far, but ultimately I play best as an assassin with mobility because I am greedy and try to make plays on that mobility. So I end up comfort picking and ignoring the map because we play almost exclusively QM and you never know what your enemy team is OR your map is before you start. So some maps fuck us and some maps literally just hand us victory.

The last minor note on bans is that we inevitably prioritized Kael. Which I'd probably say to just stick with, but Medivh is coming and he looks OP as fuck, so I see banning him becoming a priority if people do with him what I expect them to do with him (those roaming ganks are about to become far more irritating).

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:09 pm
by Krazy
I'm out of town for another week and won't be hotsing in that time.

Anyway, Mesk makes good points, but we'd probably want to start picking heroes slightly less daily-oriented and think about comps more. The reason we struggle with dive teams is because we never have enough people with good stuns, or at least that's the way it feels to me. Sometimes our comps are just kinda bad. Positioning, timing, and target prioritization are all important, but a big part of our ability to win is picking a comp that can deal with dive comps.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:26 pm
by IskatuMesk
Ah, I wondered where you were. Yeah, comps are definitely a big deal. CC is a huge deal. I'll have to think about the drafting process a bit more indepth if we're going to be trying to get those ranked rewards, and figure out solutions to some of the problematic setups (and try to predict them, better yet).

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:13 am
by SteakofStake
One thing we can do to help stop the diving tank problem is just have people pick tanks that can't dive that well, like stitches or arthas. Also, whenever the pubbies would let me play rexxar in ranked, it felt like I had a better time controlling the battlefield than I do with other warriors. Pubbies don't like people playing rexxar because there aren't many that know how to control the shitty bear ai.

Comps with a 2+ mages that ream us can be countered hard by anub'arak, and I think I sent you a replay that shows that pretty decently.

As for team comp, the best thing to do is just counter-pick. Most games I played (coming from about 20 ranked games) whenever my team and I prioritized counter-picking but also keeping in mind that we want a decent comp (most want 1 warrior 1 support 2 assassin 1 spec) we would end up having a better time.

Illidans can be a problem, but if you have a xul or lili around that should be in the middle of the team during fights, they can help the backline with illidans.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:46 pm
by IskatuMesk
We had two warriors sometimes which I think is ok but one of them should probably be more of a dps (Leoric is a good choice if they have a strong frontline and say emu goes morales, Leoric can go for a greedy damage build and get stim at 20 with that life steal, having Diablo AND Johanna is pretty low on damage, we can make it work but I don't think vs dual support). Otherwise maybe we want to take Sonya instead of ban her if anyone plays her well enough. I would say take her as a first pick to be honest if we aren't taking another high priority like li'ming (especially if she gets banned) in that case. What other tanks do good damage? If we can't think of a way to make that work maybe we should stick to 1 warrior and either go dual support or more heavily into damage overall (especially with CC, like sylvanas or xul).

Rexxar I think goes well with another tank or a team with more of a range/poke composition. He'd have problems against divey teams but against maybe a caster heavy team he could position his bear to block skillshots and harass while being fairly safe (much like Anub's beetles, they really fuck with skillshots). Dehaka is also a good secondary tank and does a lot of damage, particularly when he is not the one initiating (he kind of sucks at that unless he really gets a good spot, remember how much the 5's like to group up).

Leoric in general is a pretty versatile and strong hero. Even if you can't shut them down with a closet, if you have some kind of aoe march of the black king adds well to a burst combo and helps him sustain. You just need to be really good at timing it (and I think you might want a secondary CC or sustain hero to back up his front line, like Reghar, Sonya or Kharazim).

I've thought a while about Murky and I don't think he will see success against good 5's as much as he does in QM because Murky really relies on punishing carelessness, and while some teams were pretty careless it isn't something you should rely on. I think you need to make a comp work for him before you consider picking him (particularly one you can afford a lack of overall sustained damage but really want something annoying with a bit of CC).

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:41 am
by Krazy
Uther+Leoric+Murky+Abathur+(Tassadar) for lulz sustain

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:48 am
by IskatuMesk
I've often times given some thought to why abathur seems to work so well for me in some games, with top damage/kills and shittons of exp advantage. I think a real 5's team is likely to have better control over how much I have influence on the map, but some heroes with evo are just super goddamn strong (dehaka's african swarm is very silly with evo and duo muradin can clobber most assassins to death really fast). I am definitely gonna try it sometime in ranked. Alternatively someone else can play aba and I can go murky or butcher or something or vis versa.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:38 pm
by SteakofStake
Another thing I noticed is that whenever we would get a 2+ level advantage someone ended up getting caught out solo and the underdog bonus gave the other team a level. So whenever we get 2+ levels ahead of the other team, we should try to group up and take a fort/objective.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:32 pm
by IskatuMesk
That one emu ranked game you sent me is a perfect example of how to throw away what should be an unthrowable game. Steady 3-4 level advantage all throughout, and then valla decides to just give the enemy team pick after pick after pick and... ugh it was painful...

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:08 pm
by IskatuMesk
We did pretty good last night!!!!! and now to further my commentary. Again I haven't looked at the replays yet, I'm just going off of my unreliable memory.


Positioning is going to be your BIG HURDLE

As Milf, you might be tempted to entangle, moonfire, and otherwise pester a group of individuals on our siege camp when your team is behind you. BUT BEWARE, FOR THIS IS THE VICE OF THE FRENCH! As Milf you have no way to escape should, in the likely event, they take that opportunity to engorge on your succulent bagels. That's why when I said "don't give them the fight they want" on sun temples was because I knew you were going to walk right into them!! I should probably be more clear... but even if I was, it wouldn't help, because we told you not to go out in the middle in one of the next games because all 5 were waiting there and it was like you begged them to taste of your cheese wheels!!!!

I think you get all of this but it's just going to take practice. Think of it as like playing defense on Hakumen. Don't open yourself up for their grabby hands. If we have two tanks (Rexxar/the D) there no reason you ever want to be in front of them. Not when you are roaming lane to lane, not when you are in a fight. You always take the silence ult, which is short range, but wait for the enemy to dive into you as a body before using it. Or at least wait for your tanks to engage.

I lost a game as li ming oh no how did that happen!!?!?!?!?

That was the game with steak's hardware explosion. I can't squarely lay the blame on him for that, though... Oro had a habit of choosing some bad times to force a fight and their cho was slowly getting his shit together. To be honest though, I'd have preferred a giant killer over vikings on that matchup anyways. Lunara is great, you did good with false dad, or raynor or whatevs. I could kill their other dudes pretty easily but cho with morales was hard for me to clean up. Plus the bots did choose some dumb talents for you. We'd have won that if you didn't DC, but we didn't lose it because you DC'd, basically. Not like the game with zilla I casted before (on the same map no less iirc).

The first time we fought that team we thoroughly destroyed them, though. We had a strategy and we played it out to the T. A thoroughly good reaming all around, though maybe not as one-sided as those two towers of duum maps (NO DON'T PICK CHROMIE WE LOSE L0l). None of the games we lost did I feel were particularly one-sided against us, it's just people repeatedly made bad mistakes on top of bad mistakes.

Oro, my non-existent fam... it was like you wanted to die as hammer. So much death and bad positioning. It was not like you didn't realize you were getting singled out it was like you playing too aggressive against a dive comp. The worst part was definitely the siege camp fight on that game, though. That one exemplifies what's bad with us as a whole. A.) Fighting when behind B.) Choosing inopportune positioning when to fight.

So, with A...

We don't really have a dedicated shotcaller. I do it since we don't really have someone else talking that much. Oro had a good idea what to do at points which was great. But otherwise if I see a bad fight I try to avoid it and try to vocalized others to not as well. That is rarely the case, and sometimes the fights go unexpectedly well. But B is super important about this, especially when we are commonly behind early on.

The reason this one fight ended so badly and sealed the deal was because at least 3 of us were stacked in one tight group and ran through into their team in an area they knew we were coming from and likely had vision on. In a corridor. Asspounded. We were at least 2 levels behind at that point, probably 3 (we were 3 at other portions) because hammer kept dying and they were taking objectives for free. Sure, we want to deny objectives, but do it when we know we have an advantage. Nothing I enjoy more than fighting a low level team who thinks they can kill me by just diving into me. That's how I get so many kills. I love that shit. So yes, they want that fight. Unless we play it very well we can't take much off of them and we don't serve to gain much by doing so besides a bit of exp. Meanwhile they serve to gain a sizable map presence advantage by levering their push into a keep or such which is what they did.

We made up for that on the dragon shire map, though. The gust combos and picking apart that dive comp was just hilarious. Sure it was scary when 3-4 of them blew their ults on me all at once... every other time they committed to someone suboptimal and got punished really hard for it. That map and MU had the potential to go badly but they played sloppily and we beat up their dads for it. AAIIIYYY CARRUMMMBA

Remember, experience is global. And a 2 level lead is kind of a big deal. If I am li-ming and I had teleport damage and a 1-2 level advantage on you I am going to make it literally impossible for you to come into lane. Even 1v2. It happens a lot. A lot of other heroes also get similar advantages. Ults are a common one, but consider some other talents that contribute to advantages. The multishot Q on li-ming is another, but also slime advantage on murky is a giant power spike, false dad gets auto attack damage on Q or the exploding shit, abby-chan and get more mines, more damage, or better pushing etc. Fighting from a level disadvantage isn't just about stats, it's also about talents. It can be done but only if you are really careful about it. Fighting at every opportunity is just not a good idea. Pretty much every team we've fought has been extremely thristy except for the very rare one. Let them get thirsty and play like a bitch, then when they dive you you rip off their dicks. Like that chromie and muradim who tried to dive me under the fort for some reason. Not only did they end up handing us a bunch of coins it was a 1 for 2 in the end. Such a pointless dive.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:59 pm
by SteakofStake
IskatuMesk wrote: fam...

On that game where my pc blew up, I picked vikings because since they had cho'gall, and it was garden terror (vikings highest win rate map) it felt like they were wanting them badly. The plan was just to out-do them on xp. Also, I didn't know this until I started playing vikings, but vikings do get a form of giant killer at level 13, but its weird because its not passive, its an activatable ability, so whenever you see the odd vikings, you never see them get that talent.
Whenever I play vikings, if help is needed for something, I normally try to group baelog and olaf together, or just olaf, to help. eric I basically use as a lane ward for soaking. after level 16, though, I will try to get to level 20 fast and have baelog push a lane with eric in the other, and I can still help a lot because olaf has a stun then, and most people don't expect to be stunned for a second with a fatass chasing them.

Ricky really needs to try more characters. Hotslogs says he has played 36 games as raynor, 17 games as malf, then nova at 5 games, and then its just 4,3,2,1 on other heroes. He has like 30k gold too, or that is what he has said.

Other than that you covered basically everything that I can remember.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:39 pm
by IskatuMesk
Oh, Vikings get giant killer? That would have been nice to have then, yeah. The worst part about the dc was that they went into a big split push and that set us behind on map control to the point that cho could poke down a keep which enabled their final all-in. They almost died diving me under it... but I couldn't out damage morales, avoid cho and keep sylv off the keep all at the same time. Oh well.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:17 am
by Zilla-
we won~ yay~

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:45 pm
by IskatuMesk
I am now watching krazy's videos of last (lol I wrote this yesterday) night and will comment!!!!!!!!!

I still need to process and record replays... a lot of replays now... but ff6 has my priority so this will have to hold out.


I am looking to see how much I actually vocalize shots and strategies because having an FPVOD recording for this is handy. I can't record FPVOD myself because lol performance

krazy the wisp went right by you!!! a-move that cuck fam or that chipper bitch be peepin down ur bonnet m8

etc got a clear telegraph on you like 3 times and it was the third time he decided to actually act on it, which was knocking you into the turrets for a grand total of 2 damage. If someone else had been there, though... hixykun that is your cue to keep the expired pasture dispenser off a brotha, it's enough just to knock him away and step back instead of going for the toss that will result in him just sliding away and you taking unnecessary tower damage. You did do some knocking up when he came though, punishment = good. Makes my BDSM fetish all aflutter.

first TEAM FIGHT which we don't see because krazy is too cool to watch explosions

wisp ran right by you again!!! she was checking our boss constantly like it was gonna make a difference if they tried to fight us. Also you didn't follow the battle closely enough on the tribute so you wasted a bit of your time moving there when the battle was already resolved. To be fair though you were also fascinated by the BLIZZARD going on with that lolfrog

you got sassed but break danced out, a sequence that would replay a few more times in our games because krazy is a SURVIVOR

lol I leave you to deal with etc and he just wastes his time and you casually walk away AGAIN. Abathur always has only ETC hatted and accomplishes nothing with it throughout the game.

this lunara... lol

oh she got you


lol I ran in from behind for the big combo and then STALL and I end up shooting nowhere

next tribute fight is just rotate buttons and everyone dies

lunara's wisp finally finds us doing boss and they do nothing ???

lol you guys died on core

ok so let's talk about that core fight

it's kind of early in so artinis isn't quite able to solo cores yet. Nonetheless, steak tries to brute force it down with the low hp boss. ETC gets to walk in and just ult in a very telegraphed engage. Everyone was kind of low on mana at this point and I think a disengage after the keep went down would have been safe, but there really wasn't anything saying we couldn't win that fight. We just had to pull back and get them separated like they had a habit of doing (seeing as they just gave us the keep for free). That is kind of what I was doing... you can see me hanging back, but I didn't say anything lol. I should probably try to say things but it may not process fast enough for people to actually pull back before they fly out of the fountain and rape you.

We aren't too far ahead to lose. Their boss + a similar mistake in a second fight would be GG. That's how we end up throwing a lot of games. I think I have a few casted like that, which I should process sooner than later.

I'll save the games AFTER this one for casting but I'll catch the games you guys played earlier if they're on ymustisignin's utub. Actually I'll watch twitch since this includes the draft.

next up is what I presume to be the first RANKED TEAM with ORO and RICKEY

"FIST AND TWIST" oh ricky you make me hot under the collar

their li-ming is begging you to kill her, she keeps walking and running around into and on you over and over lol. Still, the sonya/morales/liming/syvanas combo is scary, and if raynor is good he can really mop the floor with your front line. All gonna be on oro's BATTLE LILI to time those blinds for their engage.

Nice denial on the turnins, didn't over extend. Their sonya is reluctant to punish you and this will only get worse for her team as the game goes on and you scale up. When you recognize a consistent reluctance to engage from their front line it is likely because they are scared, sometimes you can be a little bit more greedy (although with Nazeebro you can't really be "more greedy") and try to get in a few extra attacks, especially if you can finally bait them into your team as they are rotating. A failed engage like that can be mentally destructive to people who were already cautious (unlike us, we are never cautious ever). This is what tends to split people up on the map as they end up getting their own ideas how to respond to your advantage and is a test of team cohesion most lower teams will fail at.

Both teams lack real burst but the burst that does exist is on their side, so letting them engage on their terms is not really ideal. However, your team is very strong in disengage and counter engage between milf and lili. So the goal is to get them to engage suboptimally and then punish them. Oro is getting MC'd so maybe he should stay back a bit further. Since, other than Nazeebro's ult, you lack a real way to reach out and touch someone who is engaging you from afar (MC) you'd prefer someone other than a healer got MC'd so you can try to outsustain the engage and then cc them.

Li-ming asks for you to kill her again and you happily oblige. lol

Sonya dances about flailing around close to 20 minutes in looking for the ideal engage and you give it to her with a 3 man stun. Ouch. What looked like an sure defeat only ends in two deaths.

lol that quad kill, Sonya wanted to push so hard and got too far ahead, ulted with no followup, got her team flanked by anub, and they just melted. Just because you can get a good ult doesn't mean you should do it - you need followup. Which she didn't have.

Why did li-ming not get laser? They really, really need the damage from laser. She can interrupt your ult, but she isn't looking to do that, she's just contributing very little in damage. She becomes less and less relevant as the game goes on. She went a defensive build against duo support. wat. Somehow she baits you into a bad fight, though. Diving into you, almost dying, which pulls you into an unfortunate combo.


Which they then throw... by Sonya suiciding to try to stop your ult and leaving her team to wonder wtf is going on as they get collapsed on and die. I mean this was very silly, but we've definitely done worse. So, pay attention to this kind of stuff regardless who is doing it. She was so confident they could fight again if she engaged you but they were oom and fighting under towers.

None of them respect the intern donut. They get caught in it over and over and over, giving you tons of free damage.

ok, thoughts on that game

There was clear miscommunication between Sonya and the rest of her team. Her engages at times made sense from an individual's perspective but she didn't pay attention to environmental awareness.

Li-ming did not build for the matchup and rather went the same cookier cutter build every other li'ming does without understanding why they go that build (QM survival) and when he team started to fold at any point she contributed pretty much nothing, leaving it up to sylvanas to make the plays. Which was hard because half of their team was getting CC chained and anubarak was able to do whatever he wanted a lot of the time. Every time they got the right person mind controlled and engaged along with that spell it ended in their favor, every time sonya got ahead they got counter engaged and fudgepacked.

Nazeebo worked excellently in this game. They invited you to lock them down and aoe them every available chance. The saturated damage was probably a nightmare for morales and only sonya had anti-magic shield, which isn't too great against constant aids. Also the anub cocoon was super strong since they were very sustained dps oriented.

All in all pretty solid. A bit scary towards the end but they handed you a free win so it's all good.


Oro has been replaced with a hixykun.


Yes, I am often a little unsure what to pick when this inevitably happens. While it's my gut instinct to take li-ming when she's up due to how comfortable I am with her, I can of course play a few other heroes at comparably high skill level. I don't feel 100% comfortable with kerrigan and jaina in these mus due to how immobile they are, but butcher worked well the one time. This team is looking scary with the sonya/illidan combo. I'd be a little concerned as nazeebro in this. I wonder how, or if, they'll try to focus down krazy, as that should be their primary goal.

A little bit of early thirsts catches a black man with his pants down. This happens to me a lot too... of course being li-ming or something with a dash makes it easier to get away, but I usually do the poking from the bushes on the safe side rather than in lane.

blizzard pathing french tears krazy MISSING IT ALL

rip m8

steak dives past everyone and charges in to the point 1v3 that catapults into disaster on the fort from their collapse

steak dies, ricky gets a great root but you have such little damage you can only take one and you push the fight into their level 10 pop that results in more death. It's easy to forget when fighting in lane to check the exp around here but every minion is inching them to that level 10... and this catches us a lot on these games tbh.

Their two tanks and healer try to 3v5 you...

... But you die on the siege from fighting too long.

I've noticed Bill is slowly getting better and better mechanically. As I noted in my casts, his nova has been shaping up well and his raynor is becoming quite convincing as well. But raynor is hard to do well with even when mechanically sound. Which is why I don't play him much.

The battle deprived them of sonya and illidan, so their boss fight was on the back of that mantrain was really slow and painful. Furthermore, they gave you advantage on positioning by pulling the boss to their side. So when they tried to push in, they were already weak... and got sucked into the milf/d combo and subsequently melted. lol

Krazy wasn't watching the start of the next fight but you destroyed them 4v5 with a slight level advantage. Raynor is becoming stronger and they are getting greedy.

The next fight on the bruiser was effectively you begging for a throw but they end up taking a monstrous amount of damage from Krazy and diablo and it goes for 5 for 4.

The temples are messy, but Sonya has commitment issues and doesn't know which target to focus on. This lets you prolong the fight and take a bunch of kills and then close the game pretty handily.

Most noteworthy thing might be the late scaling of lili and raynor. As damage values go up and battles become much quicker, lili's blind becomes better and raynor's stacking + giant killer take center stage on the sustained damage (he's still probably one of the top if not the top sustained dps). Also, Nazeebro gets most of his damage later on. As their fights became sloppier you merely responded to that sloppiness and worked around it.


The enemy team goes for li-ming. As I mention in several of my casts, most people build li-ming defensively and don't do a heck of a lot of damage. However, a defensive li-ming is a lot more slippery and is best ignored during team fights if she has a good position. Zagara is more scary in this draft.

Everyone ALWAYS picks false dad but I wouldn't ban him because to be honest I don't consider him a late game threat. Most people are just not very good at him. False dad can't hold up a failing team and, sure, he can do some cute gust plays, but you just need to pay attention to his Z indicator and you can just kill him 9 times out of 10. He's much better as a disengager than an engager with that ult I find, and he can really save a lot of losing fights with it. However, I'd still rather deal with him than tracer, kt, or kharazim. A case you might want to ban false dad on is a big map where you plan to pick very little mobility and he can abuse his z the most.

n000 krazy don't face tank the hydra and AA zagara T.T it's always gonna be a losing trade

this li-ming is.................. bad

false dad tries to escape you by... cutting past your team instead of going back into his. Still, the fight on bruisers goes poorly. 19:30 etc looks like he might be setting up for a sick ult, but just lets you poke him to death and their whole team folds trying to defend a weird choke on their immortal. Unfortunately their next engage gets that etc ult on both your dps - he slides behind you which should have been an immediate red flag to GTFO but instead everyone dies rip

tracer and stitches lay down some smack but they get the next immortal

emu gets baited into their team and dies instantly from the knockback

At this stage you are throwing with everyone besides krazy lining up to get knocked up by ETC. There's no reason for you to be in front of the fort when their team is with the immortal, ideally you want to kill the immortal without fighting at all (same with poonisher).

The final fight is a bit messy for several reasons.

First, you engage them and they retreat. Bill wastes hyperion. HKS accidentally grabs ETC and eats him, but in the process they collapse on Ricky who got way too far ahead and the rest of the team kind of fanned out and got picked apart. When ETC popped out he acted as a zone against any kind of regrouping were it possible. You were at a 2 level disadvantage here and the resulting curbstomp is just a repeat of people getting caught and dying, ending with a 3 level disadvantage.

Steak died 10 times. As tracer. TRACER. Come on m8. The only person on your team who should have less deaths than you is stitches. For those deaths you didn't really compare to nazeebro's damage, either. I'm going to assume that's how that terrible li-ming topped damage and kills - just feeding off of people being greedy and getting caught out. ETC had the most deaths on their team as well... and nearly 20k more damage was done to him than to stitches. Considering your lower overall damage, that meant a huge chunk of your damage was going into their tank instead of valuable targets. Granted, Nazeebro does mostly ambient damage and he can't really control where most of it goes, but I feel like you could have punished the bad li-ming and false dad misplays way more than you did. A bit too eager to a-move fights after your last victories, I think.

I think overall you need communication!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and I need to be more vocal about positioning... but in a game it's hard to recognize that and furthermore speak out about it. Hindsight is always 20/20 because I am plotting out projectile paths in my head and leading like fuck to land those li-ming snipes and it can be tough to remember to even talk. That's why jungler worked so great on league, you had to have map awareness anyways so it makes sense you're a shot caller.

So two major things I take away from these few games (and others)

1 - Don't be so eager to step in front of the tanks and poke or chase when you are a dps, especially at the level 16+ mark. You doing 500 damage is not worth you getting asspounded!! If ETC is twitching like spoiled beef in your face and is trying to get up in your shit... it's because he wants to get up in your shit. Don't cluster and be prepared to just run if he gets within dash distance.

2 - Communication!!!!! we lost a game last night because I/krazy told people to go top and they did not... I was murky, I didn't need anyone in my empty lane with me... sylvanas took a fort and some dudes uncontested and that set us so far behind we didn't so much as lose as we didn't play. In hindsight I should not have gone murky, because it made our team super late game dependent team-fight wise and I was useless until I got octo... which didn't really help us in the end. I have to devise a better pick for those kinds of games.