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Re: Hots taem

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:11 pm
by IskatuMesk
Yeah valla got super thirsty during one of those terror phases, she came right in from behind separated from the group and tried to yolo them.

I also agree with tassadar not being good for solo support as well. I was mostly thinking back to a few teams we ran against that had reghar/tassadar and how extremely hard it was to get kills in on them as time went on. Can't say much about uther because I almost never see him.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:15 pm
by Krazy
Uther is very ineffective in quickmatch because he is best as a counter-pick and is punished heavily if played against the wrong comp, particularly Sylvanas, false dad, rexxar, anubarak, and lost vikings. Sylvanas gets away, false dad and rexxar never lets him get close enough, vikings ignore the main appeal (interrupting heroes), and anubarak ignores him and goes for the back line. So his overall win rate is terrible, but he's still a very good hero, especially as a counterpick, in team league. He punishes Butcher very heavily, helps catch enemy li-lis, interrupts kerrigan's life on hit, disrupts morales's stim target, and interrupts valla's ultimate. Basically if the enemy team has any life on hit hero, such as butcher or kerrigan, uther is a great counter-pick. If the enemy team has vikings or rexxar, he becomes a don't-pick.

He is also a wombo-combo with Jaina and Thrall. So if you wanted to bust out your Jaina more, I could go Uther. I could tee them up for you to knock them out.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:32 pm
by IskatuMesk
Yeah the aoe stun has the potential to be incredibly silly. Definitely a good idea there...

The last replay I had to process was the second replay steak sent me which was like a 35 minute immortal game lol this one was so silly

Okay I am gonna tackle the rest of the replays castwise soon. There's quite a few team league ones I know I need to do so I'll see what else I can analyze. Comps are gonna be one I am gonna try to pay a bit more attention to.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:15 pm
by Krazy
Actually you still pick divine shield (to keep Jaina alive!) but he has a ton of cc from benediction and hammer.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:12 pm
by IskatuMesk
some thoughts from last night

> Nova did not work out for me at all. I didn't pay enough attention and somehow anubarak knew I was in bushes when I wasn't spotted or anything (that I knew of). He'd always just charge into me. Maybe he just got lucky... in any event I wasn't able to penetrate the morales/butcher combo. I should have gone zeratul if I was gonna go stealth. But I didn't know what to pick vs that combo. Everything seemed like it'd just get initiated on. What I did pick was played really poorly. I made up for it in time, though...

> My clutch arthas pick worked super well, nearly reaching that shitty plat/diamond li-ming's damage, never dying, and missing half of my ults. But most importantly dominated the shrines and played the map well with plenty of sass to spare.

> steak did some amazing gust stuff in the arthas game gj m8

> Li-ming can't penetrate uther/tassadar combo, tass's shields are way too strong for her to defeat alone.

> Abathur domination in the QM to follow. I really want to roll him more in TL so I am trying to figure out what situations he works out in.

Krazy was saying our worst maps are dragon shire, pirate bay, etc. and we have lost every (or nearly) game against a zagara. Makes sense... most of us don't know how to deal with map pressure, don't play much around aggressive objective timings, and have a hard time positioning against harass. Also the weed map tends to go badly for us for exactly the same reasons - it favors that kind of play and I think only a few of us really can play it to its strengths. Particularly ricky struggles with the positioning portion and sometimes people get a bit too thirsty. RK-19 is again a great reference point for this map.

An observation I made during my current casting spot (early into the current season) is that two pirate games with xul we kind of dominated. Oro set us out in a strategy and we followed it, simple as it may be, which was he policed top and mid and we just did whatever. In some other game I was li-ming and basically did his role, but we were way less coordinated elsewhere, with fights commonly happening without me at all. We won that game too, iirc, but it was not quite as convincing.

I posted all 20 of my RK string on gameproc, now.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:40 pm
by Krazy
Our data pool is still small but:

For healer bans, we're better banning kharazim than rehgar at the moment. We have lost 3/4 against kharazim, and won all 4 against rehgar. (We're 1/2 vs morales).

For tank bans, ETC is slightly better for us than Anub'arak (we have lost 4/6 against ETC and 3/5 against Anubarak).

For assassin bans, I don't think we get much out of getting rid of False Dad (won 4/7 vs). We're better off banning Thrall (lost 2/3).

From last night, I did finally lose my win streak on Uther--but that was the first time in Team League I went the stun instead of the shield. I thought the stun would be so strong against 3 melee, but I think it resulted in me playing in a way that I was a bit out of position, and when I was in position I wasn't able to save people in the mosh pit. Basically, even against heavy melee, I should stick with divine shield.

I'm still for the moment higher win rate with Uther (3/4 wins), Morales (2/3 wins), and then Nazeebo (6/11 wins). I think I'm going to take Tassadar and Sylvanas out of my favorites, I didn't like the feel of them in either game I played of them.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:20 pm
by IskatuMesk
I cost us that game last night T.T a very slight misstep, I meant to teleport past the gate but I was not quite quick enough, didn't quite estimate the ult distances properly. I was hoping to poke the immortal a bit before it got on our base but nope how disappointing. Though I don't think we were going to win that fight anyways. But we certainly didn't have a chance after that fuckup. At least I think I was doing ok overall elsewhere.

Thrall's ult is pretty strong because it makes positioning nearly impossible. I expected it to push me through the gate because of the angle I was at, but it didn't, I just got hooked on the wall.

but yeah shield would have been nice for the innumerable times thrall dove me and/or ranyor. After 20 it was basically him bolting out of the group and just chasing and the shields made it nearly impossible for me to kill him, when I did it was always immediately after I died so it was a 1:1 which was not in our favor at all. iirc they were always getting some aoe shield that made it hard to get damage in for the first while but usually ETC initiated on someone else, we did a pretty good job of avoiding or cancelling out his ult and only a few times did I even get threatened by it.

The most major thing of that game other than the copious amounts of sass points I accrued was the indecision in how to proceed. This can be an issue with no camps on the map. But like I was saying during the game, the goal is to hopefully catch someone out as they rotate to a repopping camp. Problem is only Uther or Diablo could really do that in our comp so if they didn't immediately catch a valuable target their initiation usually had access to all the wrong people we didn't want them having access to. All of our tanks were always off my screen during the fights usually chasing someone. While most of their team had a habit of focusing those tanks which is what allowed me to get so many kills, looking at the stats for that game was just depressing because while iirc I had top kills, both Thrall and Jaina were very close and we were still doubled over on kills. Thrall died very very little and usually for a trade. The issue being if he's beating on a tank he's going to be outhealing any single dps on him. Whereas if he gets cc'd on top of us he's just dead.

Derphaka, Diablo, and Uther are both very immobile and rather terrible at chasing other than when Derphaka uses his burrow movespeed thing. Raynor is also pretty immobile and all he has to survive is a knockback. So long as trapped them in a bottleneck where I had a direction I could funnel any pursuers into then it wasn't an issue, but in more open areas it was like two separate fights were going on.

When I went to bed I briefly watched some german diamond 1 stream while I fed the cat. I've watched him before a couple times - KnowMe. I think he's a coach or something for some team. He only plays tanks, so it's a bit harder to get an idea how someone with my character pool plays at high level, but there was two things I noticed immediately.

1 - his mechanics were good but holy fuck is he thirsty. Diving behind enemies under a tower to mosh 2 people when only 2 allies were sort of close and the other half of the enemy team was reforming. So many obvious reads on the enemy he didn't get and too eager to fight.

2 - At diamond/challenger people die for the absolute dumbest shit. Point in case - Uther trying to hold a siege point vs a li ming and other poke coming in. German man didn't want to engage and no one else was there but Uther insisted on holding that point until he died, then they engaged anyways and got destroyed. This is ricky level stuff, it isn't just at our level.

The main thing I want to take away from this is it's in part because of QM, but a lot of our games are played like it's still QM. So decision making is a bit tougher when the enemy is moving as a body and we can't just rely on snagging someone out. But I think in the infernal butts map we were doing pretty good in that regard - only steak was getting caught out. He shouldn't try to push the lane out when we can't see them... as tempting as it is. That said dehaka was working pretty well overall.

I finally got to play abathur!!!!!! but the game went kind of poorly... I mean we were doing ok but the objective control was not very good. The boss throw... again. This map is bad for that and I think we need a little more defined of a gameplan on how we do bosses. There was some conflict of opinion on how to handle that situation. It wasn't our first boss throw of the night, either. If it helps, here's what I think about bosses -

- I usually call boss if we have killed 2 of the enemy's most major threats. Vs a team with false dad and illidan, that means both false dad and illidan. This is because tanks usually can't just burst you down and they open themselves to get fucked if they try to hold the point. But DPS can pick you outside the edge if you are fighting and well I've done that so many times on towers of duum I never want to make it an option to enemies.

- So long as they are seen currently on the other side of the map and are actively engaging in clearing waves or other camps.

- So long as no one passes a minion or gets revealed by anything. So much as moving in that direction is a hint from an enemy to me, top players will be thinking the exact thing.

Abathur was working super well and I got lots of hilarious kills, tons of exp, tons of damage, lots of siege. But our comp wasn't quite the most amazing for evos, what was tipping it in our favor was rather that the enemy went tyrande and she was really shitty against us. Evo artanis and I killed her basically every fight I had access to her and no one on her team could do shit about it. Problem was illidan would always be the last to die and morales was just as fucked as her. So we ended up trading supports and it came down to if false dad had died or not. The levels went up and things got better for us, but at the critical point where I could start smashing their base with a curse we instead threw the boss rather willingly.

I will try to remember to call it out if there is a contention on the objective. I don't know if I did for this but if I did it was the wrong choice and I didn't check the enemy team's members before doing so. I sometimes get nervous in these games and don't always fact check before deciding to follow someone else's game plan.

Total anal decimation on dragon shrine. We took some poor bronzies and ripped their pants. Also, another game I did pretty well with lunara in. The chromie was better at comboing me when my shield wasn't up (ambient damage) but she got caught out a hilarious number of times and I usually traded 1 for 2. I did an odd ult choice which was thornvine over jumping ult which may have been more or less the result of 2 or more deaths since I lacked some mobility. These bigger maps are definitely the place to take her in. So many people who rotate out of order and give you easy access to their most vulnerable members. We're a bit better about that, at least, mostly because I get ultra cautious.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:03 pm
by SteakofStake
I feel like if I go zagara and then the rest of us go heavy team fight it would work. So far all but 1 solo ranked game I played as zag (this one didn't have that good of a teamfight comp) I have been able to do the infest cheese to some extent, whether it be ditching my team and going core with 2 catapults or just winning a base race. Most of the time it came down to delaying a turn-in and waiting for the lane to push up by itself so people don't notice.

Also, playing more ranked has shown me different things to do with first or second ban, but getting first ban is almost always better in team league (in solo it can be worse than second ban since the first person picking may not have KT/li ming). I showed you guys how scared people are of KT when I banned false dad over KT. I think I need to do this every time (banning depending on the map) in team league because people will think we will try to first pick KT since the ban is so common, thus allowing mesk a li-ming. Obviously it won't work every time, but for the majority it might.

I want to play dehaka more often, especialy on dragon shire, infernal shrines, and cursed hallow. All of these maps have something in common, and that is people swarming to the first/second objectives. (this is off-topic of dehaka, but heroes like xul should try to skip the first objective since they gain free-reign on pushing, and if they don't then they are dragging someone away from the fighting to deal with you). The ability to traverse anywhere on the map every 40 seconds (10 seconds at 20, apex is so much fun) allows for me to soak waves very well, but dehaka is shit at structure damage.
~I lost my train of thought on this part I will come back and edit if I remember

I kindof see HKS as our designated tank, since he always plays diablo, murky, stitches, and artanis. I think he should toss out the murky, since he isn't very good against most things. I would kinda prefer going double warrior with no spec than solo warrior murky :p last night wasn't much of a problem since I was going off-tanks most of the time, but previous nights i have seen him chose murky when the other team had heroes that can shit on him in almost every engagements. But, if my memory is correct, he had bought tyrande, and tyrande is actualy one of the best supports in the game when played right.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:04 pm
by Krazy
Yeah, if you want to skip first ban on kael to force them to do it that's fine, I just don't think you should be banning false dad since we actually have done well against him with a few exceptions. I think you'd be better off banning thrall, particularly since none of us play him.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:41 pm
by IskatuMesk

today we rolled the DOUBLE D in most matchups with HILARIOUS RESULTS except for the game vs diamonds where I was chromie... but I was holding my own against the diamond sylvanas!!! tbh I am not really sure what happened that map other than everyone getting plowed and outplayed everywhere, but it was good experience in chromie which I need if I am to play her seriously. I didn't feel too stressed by their high mobility team, but maybe because they didn't make a conscious effort to dive me so much as they just killed everyone else and then followed me. I dunno if anything else I could have picked would have helped... both me and tracer couldn't do too much.

Krazy showed me a hilarious QM he played against medivh I recorded (and I think he recorded) that might be worth a watch to see some of the things he can do...

I made up for the failure of li-ming at the end of last night by thoroughly destroying everyone in 2010. SPIDERS and POONISHERS and DONG KNIGHTS, even the dreaded KAELTHAS was tickled to death though he killed me once when I couldn't see the damn flamestrike indicator under brush. blizzard pls fix ur shit one of these days

meanwhile we destructed li-mings a few times with the LUNARA and had a very close but unfortunate loss on towers of duum from a few sloppy positioning mistakes, but we did pretty good in the next run of that map where we thoroughly penetrated some poor kids behind their own main wall lol definitely gotta cast that one for teh hix and company.

QM with arthas didn't yield even comparable results to our decimating game yesterday but our comps were stupid so that didn't help. I made up for the unkillable shrine game by dying the most in both games I think. I got thirsty... I think Arthas needs a second tank or other forms of cc to help lock things down. He can solo most assassins on his own, though. Jaina in particular is an easy kill.

I played some kaelthas and though I won both games I felt slow, clumsy, and ran into more skillshots than I care to admit. The damage is broken, though. Just broken.

battle lili seems to win every game... have we lost with it yet?

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:00 pm
by Krazy
In Ouroborus's games of Lili in a 5 man team league, he has won 3/3 with gale force open and 3/3 with Water Dragon, which suggests that two-healer ninja lili has won 3/3 with him. (He has lost with other Lili games, 2/4 jugs games)

Steak has won 3/4 as battle lili, an easier thing to calculate since he never plays normal lili in team league. In the game he lost, we did not make it to 20, he chose the good stuff over lightning serpent, and shake it off at 16.

So I'm thinking we've gone 6/7 with battle lili.

After yesterday, our 5 worst enemies with at least 2 games played are:
Greymane (0/2 wins)
Tyrande (1/4 wins)
Thrall (1/4 wins)
Kharazim (1/4 wins)
ETC (2/7 wins)

Thrall is probably still our best assassin ban, ETC our best tank ban, and Kharazim our best healer ban.

Generally we do a lot better with a 2/1 or a 1/2 comp, either two tanks (Diablo and Dehaka) or two healers (battle lili + ?) than wonky specialist builds or super glass cannon assassins.

We have not won with Tracer (0/2) or Abathur (0/2) (which is why I quietly moan "no..." when people pick those heroes).

Here's some of our top win rate heroes:
Krazy's Diablo (4/4)
Krazy's Uther (3/4)

Ouroborus's Lili (3/3)

Mesk's Lunara (3/3) (3/4 without me)
Mesk's Li-Ming (6/8)

Steak's Dehaka (4/5)
Steak's Lili (3/4)

Bill's Sylvanas (3/4)

Hicks is 7/13 with Diablo and Ricky is 5/8 with Malf, which is about our win rate overall.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:35 pm
by IskatuMesk
Yeah, I have been steamrolling with Abathur in QM but that's because we can really punish people for being out of position (pure mine and hat builds lolol). Even the most mediocre of TL teams rarely open themselves enough for me to do that as Abathur (though as Lunara etc the smaller mistakes are much more easily punished).

I am close to finally being able to get gaymane...

/e aw yis he's free this week, now I can see how well it works if the ming gets band again

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:59 pm
by SteakofStake
Alright, so on my last ranked game I learned a thing we can do whenever we get gardener terror, and have a hicksey.* run the D, ill go TLV, and then we get 3 other heroes that are strong gankers, and then you can go from lane to lane catching out the thirsty who are trying to kill my vikings that are hiding behind the walls.

*Krazy can be used as a substitute

PS - I got ranked platinum 1 :333333

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:14 pm
by IskatuMesk
PTR shows some nice buffs to mine damage and volatile mutation, as well as a lunara buff and some jaina changes. Gonna FP abathur every game now and put on my sass cap.

Re: Hots taem

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:12 pm
by SteakofStake
This is what I see from this PTR-
-aww it gets cancelled every time you take damage now
-wait so I need to spam banelings now? :/ gonna have to set that to quick cast
-oh so shes more of an auto attacking hero now
-oh so mutalisks don't time out anymore...that seems cool for split pushing (its a talent)
-oh zag's hydro licks can get a giant killer now
-New Talent– Endless Creep (Trait)

Increases Creep Tumor cast range by 2000%
Creep Tumor duration increased from 240 to 600 seconds
While on Creep Zagara gains an additional 20% move speed

-blizzard seems to try to make insight a more enticing talent, although the change would make it see more play if they hadn't made it a quest. gotta auto attack 300 things to make it a half-decent talent compared to the other 2

-piano uther lol
-not actualy a change

-Buffed anti-mage
-level 7 quest talent that seems utterly pointless
-aww now I gotta wait another 5 seconds after I hit level 20 to stalk

-we can troll our allies by default now. You done gud bliz, gonna go emu fishing

lol people complaing in the comments about jaina changes not understanding what zoning is. Or what a stun can do

I just realized how much of a buff abathurs aoe shield build got. Minions deal more damage to things, so escorting them is higher priority, and giving them shields just makes them all the better