Diablo 3 beta

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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby Milldawg » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:57 pm

That google docs article is the most pretentious video game review I have ever read.

HEY GUYS I MENTIONED JOHN MILTON AND USED LONG WORDS LOOK AT ME I AM EDUMACATED

Many of the points made were good, though, if you could decipher them through all the pedantic bullshit.

EDIT: If that guy is the kind of person that video games are supposed to be written for, then there's no point to making video games in the first place, because that kind of person is not pleased by anything. Diablo III did have a lot of enjoyable moments that the reviewer completely disrespects. This isn't Advanced Projects in Religious Philosophy. It's a fucking video game.

EDIT2: I had to stop reading the article about halfway through, when he was talking about Act 2. Partly it was me getting sick of page after page of snide, egotistical nitpicking, and partly it was just too goddamn long. Reading the article made me feel defensive about Diablo III. It made me want to punch and/or stab that reviewer in the throat and/or balls. THANKS A LOT, GALINUS, OR WHATEVER YOUR NAME IS.


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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby Gradius » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:59 pm

Well Milfdawg, I did warn you about the underhanded bashing. :P

But yeah, he does seem like the type who wouldn't really enjoy anything.
Last edited by Gradius on Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby IskatuMesk » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:15 pm

rofl @ Milfdawg :3
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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby Alevice » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:38 am

Doesnt help that he is complaining because the story isnt accurate to Judeo Christian mythology. WHich not even in the first game was. Diablo was never a fucking fallen angel. And nowhere to be found is stated that Heaven and Hell in DIablo lore are places of the afterlife, only higher realms.

It's like he tries to be fucking pretentious and at the same time is so idiotic and misses the point entirely.


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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby Gradius » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:33 pm

Alevice wrote:Doesnt help that he is complaining because the story isnt accurate to Judeo Christian mythology. WHich not even in the first game was. Diablo was never a fucking fallen angel. And nowhere to be found is stated that Heaven and Hell in DIablo lore are places of the afterlife, only higher realms.

I never played either of the diablo games, so I'm probably missing context, but that's not really the point of him talking about Milton and Christian mythology, at all. He's attacking the world-building of the diablo universe, which he explains here:

Spoiler: show
Based on the excellent feedback I have to assume I did a poor job of explaining my reasons for defining mythical relevance and extrapolation.

My intent was to establish that the lore in the series does not set out to create a completely unique or original universe. This is neither a good nor bad thing in any way, whatsoever. It simply is.

The criticism stems, instead from relying on the reader's foreknowledge of story, events, terminology and characters without explicitly redefining every single element. When you rely on the pre-existing knowledge of an entity/location/object/concept/etc. in the mind of the reader, you're expecting the reader to draw on that implicit information to help you flesh out your story [read: give it shape and meaning].

Now, if you rely on that external knowledge to support your own story structure, then something happens in your story that contradicts the implicit purpose, that element becomes ambiguous, abstract and confusing. Thus, it loses all meaning and purpose. Your universe begins to collapse in on itself.

If you do this without realizing it you're a sloppy author. If you do this and try to retroactively change everything from implicit to explicit, you're a sloppy, terrible writer.

To satirically illustrate, this would be like reading a book about life in a city -- cars, crime, apartments, pollution, the plight of the human condition, etc.. At this point you're expected to know what a car is, lest the story make little-to-no sense. Having this pre-existing knowledge allows you to ken the meaning of the author. The Author relies on it. Suddenly though, hundreds of pages in, the author tells you "oh yeah, btw, cars are giant purple phallic monsters, with teeth made of lasers. Oh, and they love Invader Zim reruns -- that's important to the story."

If I'm still failing credibility here, you might read "How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later" by Philip K. Dick. I'm not half the author he is; and he has street cred in this matter. Word.


For example, when Tyrael decides that he is going to become mortal and return to heaven (an immortal realm), it flies in the face of what most people know about angels and heaven, and you get a "wtf" moment. How does becoming mortal put him in a position to accomplish more than if he had all his powers? If he dies as a "mortal," will he not just be reincarnated in heaven anyway? So what's the point? And also, weren't there tortured souls in the hell levels of earlier diablo games? I don't know because I never played, but I assume the author wouldn't miss something like that.

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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby Hercanic » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:27 pm

Gradius wrote:For example, when Tyrael decides that he is going to become mortal and return to heaven (an immortal realm), it flies in the face of what most people know about angels and heaven, and you get a "wtf" moment. How does becoming mortal put him in a position to accomplish more than if he had all his powers? If he dies as a "mortal," will he not just be reincarnated in heaven anyway? So what's the point? And also, weren't there tortured souls in the hell levels of earlier diablo games? I don't know because I never played, but I assume the author wouldn't miss something like that.

Angels becoming mortal/human is established in popular culture, such as with the films City of Angels, Dogma, and Legion.

Becoming mortal allows Tyrael to no longer be bound by the Angel's restrictive laws on interference with Sanctuary. Had he remained an angel, he would likely have been imprisoned by Imperius as punishment for his actions in Diablo 2 with the Worldstone. He also did so as the ultimate gesture of disgust for his people's inaction, which by showing how far he was willing to go for his ideals could have rallied like-minded angels into action.

As for the tortured souls in D2's hell, humans are frequently sacrificed to the demons. What do you suppose that means? Also, who's to say those are even human souls? Eon-long wars have raged between heaven and hell, with numerous angels having been captured, bound, and mutilated.
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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby Milldawg » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:07 pm

Every plot in existence has plot holes and inconsistencies. If all you're thinking about as you're going through the game is "wow, all these things are so illogical!" and "how can they justify this epistemologically?!" then you shouldn't be playing video games, you should be a philosophy grad student.


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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby Gradius » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:11 pm

Angels becoming mortal/human is established in popular culture, such as with the films City of Angels, Dogma, and Legion.

Do any of those angels return to heaven and stay there as mortals? Again, the problem is that the universe Blizz set up starts falling apart by relying on common definitions of human/angel/mortal. Is Tyrael human? Well, he seems like a human, except he still has his angelic door-opening powers, so not really. He can survive an atmospheric reentry, yet almost dies when tortured by some humans. Is Tyrael even mortal? He says so, but again, he still has angel powers and might just revive back in heaven for all we know. Certainly no mortal that I know wakes up every day saying "whoopee, today could be the day I die, how invigorating!"

Hercanic wrote:Becoming mortal allows Tyrael to no longer be bound by the Angel's restrictive laws on interference with Sanctuary. Had he remained an angel, he would likely have been imprisoned by Imperius as punishment for his actions in Diablo 2 with the Worldstone. He also did so as the ultimate gesture of disgust for his people's inaction, which by showing how far he was willing to go for his ideals could have rallied like-minded angels into action.

Nobody has any clue where Malthael is, so why would they find Tyrael should he have chosen to stay immortal? Since all he came to do was deliver a warning, I seriously think he could have done that one simple task before going up to see Imperius. The whole process could have been expedited if time wasn't wasted fixing his self-inflicted amnesia by gathering sword pieces. Two seconds. That's how much time it would have taken for him to visit Deckard Cain and say "yo dawg, the forces of hell are on the move".

Milldawg wrote:Every plot in existence has plot holes and inconsistencies. If all you're thinking about as you're going through the game is "wow, all these things are so illogical!" and "how can they justify this epistemologically?!" then you shouldn't be playing video games, you should be a philosophy grad student.

Diablo 3 may have been enjoyable at times (mostly due to the extremely impressive work of the art team, just like in SC2), but the difference between games like it and mass-effect, SC1, half-life, etc, which take world-building a little more seriously, is why I can't get into Diablo's lore at all yet still find myself browsing wikis for other games on occasion.

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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby Alevice » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:15 pm

My criticism of his review lies in these accusations:

Spoiler: show
Derivations and Mythology:
It's beyond obvious that the game's universe is primarily based on Judeo-Christian
mythology. But it's extremely unevenly applied. Abstract concepts are taken from this
mythology and used in an implicitly identical context, but are missing integral and defining
components from the universe that need to exist to give the concept any meaning at all.
Whether directly or indirectly, you've based the game's lore largely off of Milton, but you
seem to have a great deal of confusion about the nature of hell, domains, devils and
demons.

We already know Belial is probably the worst liar in the universe, but how is his domain
made manifest for his encounter? Are all the poison and snakes a judeo-christian
mythological allegory based on the Edenian legend? If so, was it not Diablo [Read: Satan]
that took the form of a snake and lied to Eve. Would it not be then, Diablo who is
Lord of Lies?

According to Judeo-Christian mythology, Satan/Diablo and all his bretheren were angels
that sought freedom from god's tyranny. Being that angels had consciousness, but lacked
free will, they became envious of mankind's ability to choose their own destiny. The
angels postulated their own free will by merely conceiving of it. It is at this moment, for
the first time ever the concept of 'sin' is created and defined. Sin is essentially a defiance
of god's will by desiring personal freedom over immortal slavery. It is in the Miltonian
legend that sin becomes a living personification of this aspect of consciousness in the
heavenly idiom, thus [she] is an angel as well.

Diablo/Satan plot to overthrow god, only because they know that god will not allow their
freedom. Of course, against the omnipotence of a monotheistic god, they fail to achieve
victory. Thus god creates hell as a domain of eternal torture and banishes
Satan/Diablo, Sin and all their co-conspirators to that place. The angels banished by god
have 'fallen out of the grace of god', hence the term 'fallen angel' a.k.a. devil.

The exiled angels/devils are spread out over hell and tied to various forms of sadistic
torture for eternity. After many aeons, some of them manage to free themselves from
their bonds and quickly discover that they are not alone. Terrible creatures exist in this
domain that are living (unliving?) embodiments of pain, fear, malice, etc. -- creatures
created by god for the sole and dedicated purpose of terrorizing and harming the fallen
angels/devils. These creatures are known as demons.

As you can probably see right away that devils and demons are pretty antithetical
concepts. One can't help but notice there is some massive confusion in the game about
this, esp. of Act IV. Many of the elements of the story fail on this basis alone. For
example, we see enemies in Act IV named "Fallen Angel" which are categorically listed
as "Demon" by presence of Diablo's influence. How does one influence a being
[read: angel] that lacks the freedom of choice into becoming an abomination created by
an angry god, who's sole purpose is to terrorize the very creature they are acting in
accord with? According to the mythology that you've inaccurately plaigarized, this is
impossible. The only thing that defines divinity in this matter is that the angels that do
exist, exist because they are extentions of god's will, physically incapable of any kind of
defiance of nature.

The diminutive structure of power in hell is primarilty an ancient Roman amalgamation of
Greek polytheistic mythology and Judeo-Christian monotheistic mythology. The reasons
for this subdivision of power are endemically human and almost entirely cryptopolitical,
esp. as evidenced by Virgil, Dante and Milton -- thus we see obvious historical derivation
taking place.

Mythologically speaking, Diablo's purpose for helping in part to create organization in hell
was for the purposes of formulating and executing an escape plan from the realm of
eternal torture and to return to heaven, where they could once again experience
happiness and serenity forever. The motivations of the story's antagonists are
contradictory, unfaceted, shallow and completely unbelievable. Nothing in the
history of the known universe operates on the principal of evil-for-the-sake-of-evil.
Nothing. No writer worth his salt exploits this.

It is perhaps one of the worst things a writer can possibly do to create a character that
lacks purpose other than to serve as a plot device. Why would he destroy his own
paradise and fill it with devices of his own torment? The fact that you've plagiarised this
story, but managed to entirely miss the integral motivations that set all events in motion
is unforgivable as a writer. Honestly, Mr. Metzen, you should be fired for this.



When, had you read the Diablo 1 Manual, you will have learnt most of the lore, where it makes very few asumptions on the relation between the mortal realm and the other two realms:

Spoiler: show
OF HEAVEN AND HELL
The Great Conflict
Since the Beginning, the forces of Light and Darkness have engaged in an eternal war: The Great Conflict, whose victor will rise from the apocalyptic ashes to hold sway over all creation. To this end, the Angels of the High Heavens adhere to strict militaristic disciplines. Seraphim warriors strike at the enemies of Light with swords imbued with righteous wrath and justice. The Angels believe that only absolute discipline can properly restore order to the myriad realms, while the demonic denizens of the Burning Hells hold that absolute chaos is the true nature of all things.

The battles of the Great Conflict rage across both time and space, often infringing upon the very fabric of reality itself. From the Crystal Arch at the very heart of the High Heavens to the arcane Hellforge of the Underworld, the warriors of these eternal realms journey to wherever their timeless conflict carries them. The legendary deeds of the heroes of the realms beyond elicit both veneration and insight.

The greatest of these heroes was Izual, lieutenant to the Arch-Angel Tyrael and bearer of the Angelic Runeblade Azurewrath. He once led a fierce attack upon the Hellforge as the creation of the dark demonblade Shadowfang was nearing completion. His quest was to destroy both wielder and weapon - a charge that he was destined never to complete. Izual was overcome by the legions of chaos and, tragically, was lost to the Darkness. His fate stands as testament to the fact that Angels and Demons alike shall fearlessly enter into any domain - so long as their hated enemies dwell within.

(Page 62)
Although the Great Conflict burned hotter and longer than any of the stars in the sky, neither side could gain dominion over the other for long. Both factions sought some way to turn the tides of the war to their favor. With the ascension of Man and his mortal realm, the Great Conflict ground to a mysterious halt. Both armies paused in a breathless stalemate, waiting to see to whose side Man would eventually turn.

Mortals had the unique ability to choose between Darkness and Light, and it was held that this would be the deciding factor in the outcome of the Great Conflict. Thus, the agents of the nether-realms descended to the mortal realm to vie for the favor of Man...

The Sin War
The coming of the Great Conflict to the mortal realm is known as the Sin War. Angels and Demons, disguising themselves while traveling amongst men, attempted to secretly lure mortals to their respective causes. Over time, the forces of Darkness discovered that mortals responded much more to brute force than to subtle coercion, and so began to terrorize Man into submission. The Angels fought to defend humanity against this demonic oppression, but all too often their austere methods and severe punishments succeeded only in alienating those whom they sought to protect.

The violent battles of the Sin War occurred often, but they were seldom witnessed by the prying eyes of Man. Only a few "enlightened" souls were aware of the supernatural beings that walked amongst the huddled masses of humanity. Powerful mortals arose and accepted the challenge of the Sin War, allying themselves with both sides in the Great Conflict. The legendary deeds of these great mortal warriors served to earn both the respect and hatred of the netherworlds. Although lesser demons kneeled before those possessing power and strength, they also cursed the very existence of mortal man. Many of these fiends believed that the deadlock brought about by the emergence of Man was a perverse offense to their “higher” role in the great scheme of things.

This jealousy of Man led to harsh, atrocious acts of violence by the demons against the mortal realm. Some men learned of this deep hatred and used it against the denizens of the Underworld. One such mortal, Horazon the Summoner, delighted in summoning demons and then breaking them to his will. Horazon, along with his brother Bartuc ,were members of the Eastern mageclan known as the Vizjerei. This mystic clan studied the ways of demons and had catalogued their lore for generations. Empowered by this knowledge, Horazon was able to take the work of the Vizjerei and pervert it for his demented purposes. The denizens of Hell sought revenge against this bold mortal, but Horazon managed to keep himself well protected within his arcane sanctuary.

(Page 63)
Bartuc, the brother of Horazon, was eventually lured to the side of Darkness. He was granted exceptional strength and longevity, and fought alongside the legions of Hell against the cursed Vizjerei, and eventually his own brother during the Sin War. Although Bartuc was renowned amongst the warriors of many realms, his dominance in battle came with a terrible price. An insatiable lust for mortal blood pervaded his every thought and deed. Bartuc soon became as fond of bathing in the blood of his enemies as he did of shedding it, and in time he came to be known only as the Warlord of Blood.


There is quite a lot of lore that pretty much renders bullshit like accusing that diablo should be the lord of lies because of the tale of Adam and Eve (inexistent in the Diablo universe). Retorting that because Fallen Angels have an ingame Demon classification (relevant to fuckign balance) result to be contradictory because Judeo Chrisitan /Milton Mythology refers them as devils has no place here (specially because it is not agreed that devil is a fallen angle in diablo universe, either).

Hell is not a place for eternal torture for devils/fallen angels whatever, it exists as an ebodiment of chaos - tortured souls exist because it is stated that humanity has gained popularity with the Big Baddies over the lesser demons, which means they torture them over a jelaousy of power; tortured angles exist because they aretheir eternal rivals as representants of order.

These are the sort of flaws I find in his whole argument relating mythology. There is a clearly defined mythology within, that he ignores for whatever reason, rendering his points moot.

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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:47 pm

Milldawg wrote:Every lazily-written plot in existence has plot holes and inconsistencies.

Fixed.

Plain and simple, Blizzard has never hired a real writer for their games. They don't need to to make a profit, and they're not going to start. It is just one of many reasons why any and all bad publicity is a good thing. They really need to be brought down to size. Games should never be expected to have bad writing. That is just unacceptable and I really can't stand it when people say that. Why should we expect an unfinished product? Why should games go backwards instead of forwards?

Diablo 3 is an example of the industry's degradation in its most pure, primal form. Take a good look and think about what you're saying.

Note - I haven't read the article and couldn't give less of a shit about it.
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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby Falchion » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:27 am

Well, Mesk, just imagine how awful it'd be if someone INTENTIONALLY wanted to make a bad writing...
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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby IskatuMesk » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:23 am

You must be referring to World of Warcraft. I try not to think of it as writing in such a case, more like a corporate-funded troll.
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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby Lavarinth » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:21 pm

Gradius wrote:
Angels becoming mortal/human is established in popular culture, such as with the films City of Angels, Dogma, and Legion.

Do any of those angels return to heaven and stay there as mortals? Again, the problem is that the universe Blizz set up starts falling apart by relying on common definitions of human/angel/mortal. Is Tyrael human? Well, he seems like a human, except he still has his angelic door-opening powers, so not really. He can survive an atmospheric reentry, yet almost dies when tortured by some humans. Is Tyrael even mortal? He says so, but again, he still has angel powers and might just revive back in heaven for all we know. Certainly no mortal that I know wakes up every day saying "whoopee, today could be the day I die, how invigorating!"

Tyrael was the first case of this happening, it doesn't mean it cannot happen. Tyrael is now human, yes, but he retained his sword, which is his as he created it. It doesn't belong to Heaven, in other words, though it retains its own angelic powers since it was made by an angel and doesn't require an angel to wield it. Every Angel has their own weapon crafted for them or by them. His sword, with its power, is what opened the door, not Tyrael himself, so Tyrael is still shown as human here. The atmospheric reentry can be argued as a statement that he was not fully human yet until he landed onto Sanctuary, and thus being now human, the dark magic could easily inflict damage to him. Tyrael claims he's mortal and never once uses powers stating otherwise to my recollection. He has an angelic sword, and has the skills to wield it as any swordsman would. Upon death as a human, you don't go to heaven. Heaven's population is generated by the "spine" of their own god that is displayed and covered in gems. Upon death, a human likely goes to a plane inaccessible by neither of three realms, perhaps even the Void like those in Heaven and Hell go to. Hope that clears up a bit. As for Hell's population, I'm unsure how they're generated aside knowing some Lords would create beings themselves from emptiness.
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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby Krazy » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:38 pm

Leah suggests that demons are created "like a human leaves a footprint" so it's almost as though demons are created effortlessly by the lords of hell as they pass through. Although perhaps she's referring there to simply leaving them behind rather than creating them.

What bothers me more as I think about it is that Leah completely obsesses over finding her mother, yet she never makes any comment whatsoever on Leoric, who apparently is her grandfather, if Aiden is her father. It kind of feels like the writers didn't even map out her family tree, which makes no sense considering how much of the plot revolves around her and her family. And I completely agree that Leoric and The Butcher should have been switched. Almost every revelation about Leoric occurs after you kill him. The placement of the butcher at the end of act 1 is totally arbitrary. They could have put zombie andariel there instead and it would have made just as much sense.

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Re: Diablo 3 beta

Postby Falchion » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:46 pm

The biggest problem is the writers in Blizzard have been acting like Michael Bay as of late. They don't give a damn about the depth of the story or the story itself, as long as they can show the action they wanna show as quick as possible.

That's some sort of a suicidal strategy for me, as I feel the story should be a top priority and the gameplay should help evolve the story instead of replacing it as spotlight.
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